It is absolutely more verbose. The Lisp form can store N constants into N variables in 2N+3 tokens: two parentheses, plus the variables and constants and one symbol. Assignment statements require 3N tokens: N vars, N constants, N assignment operators. That's assuming they don't need some mandatory separator or terminator like a semicolon. We break even when N = 3. For N > 3, 2N+3 < 3N.
Anyway, this is hardly the main point of the article (and probably detracts from it).
Re:Playing with Syntax
by loup-vaillant on Saturday August 20, 2016 @12:56PM
(#12327335)
Indeed, my main point is not verbosity —it's regularity. I'd rather repeat `setf` in most cases in the name of regularity. That way we spot the semantic difference between lines more easily.
You'd have to use the assignment heavily to justify implementing the `=` syntax, which is barely prettier than the regular `setf` syntax. Plus, you'd probably have to add some annotation anyway, partially defeating the point:
(assign
x = 10
y = 20
z = 30)If you repeat setf, you may need a progn to make it one expression. And parallel assignment is off the table without temporary variables:
(if condition
(psetf a c b a c b)
(psetf a b c a b c))
:)P.S. of course I know rotatef would be better here.
Re:Playing with Syntax
by PrettyButUgly on Saturday August 20, 2016 @04:49PM
(#12328261)
I'm not much for Common Lisp, but I do think Scheme is the prettiest language in which people write ugly code. As such, while I am sympathetic to the virtues of s-expressions, this example is not going to win any hearts or minds. I don't much care for Python's performance or newer features, but your snippet screams for a comparison:
if condition:
a, b, c = c, a, b
a, c, b = b, a, c
That really seems much more clear than the gymnastics my mind has to do manually pairing the assignments inside of psetf. I won't argue that it's objectively better syntax, but I still think it is.
Re:Playing with Syntax
by qwertyuiop924 on Sunday August 21, 2016 @12:24PM
(#12331448)
Well...
(define-syntax assign-group!
(ir-macro-transformer
(lambda (x i c)
(let ((vars (cadr x))
(vals (caddr x)))
`(let ,(map (lambda (var val) '(var val)) vars vals)
,@(map (lambda (var)
`(set! ,(i var) ,var)) vars))))))
Mind, I haven't tested this, because I don't have CHICKEN Scheme (the dialect this is written in) in front of me, and I may not have matched all the parens on the end, but it should work like this: (assign-group! (a b c) (c a b))
Giving you your nice assigment syntax you wanted.That's the nice thing about Lisps: if you don't like it, you can change it.
Re:Playing with Syntax
by qwertyuiop924 on Monday August 22, 2016 @03:29PM
(#12338751)
There is in fact one error in the above macro: well, I think only one: in the map, (lambda (var val) '(var val)) should be (lambda (var val) (list var val))
That's why I mentioned rotatef:
(rotatef a c b) ;; a <-- c <-- b
;; `--->----->-'You forgot "else:"
Re:Playing with Syntax
by PrettyButUgly on Saturday August 20, 2016 @07:57PM
(#12328847)
Funny that. In my head, I parsed it as two (odd) statements under one if statement. More like when than if.
That is why you would typically create a struct, and then assign the whole struct at once. If you are regularly assigning > 20 variables at the same time, something is wrong with the language you are using.
on the other hand = is one character, and if it's not a legal character in identifiers then
x=1 y=2 z=3 takes 2n characters (setf x 1 y 2 z 3) takes 2n+7 characters (plus however many we're using for the actual identifies and values but those'll be the same between examples)
Lisp has an = function; so that binding is taken. Symbols in the keyword package are allowed to have function bindings, and so a synonym for setf can be called := (the symbol named "=" in the keyword package).
[1]> (defmacro := (&rest args) `(setf ,@args))
:=
[2]> (defvar a)
A
[3]> (:= a 42)
42
[4]> a
42
[5]> (= a 42)
T
We could make all 3 lines the same with `setf`, but that would be a bit more verbose:
In a program that heavily use the assignment statement, I vote for the shorter form, `=`.