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Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by GregBuchholz on Thursday August 11, 2016 @03:45PM (#12271080)
>and onto irrelevant metaphysical tangents.

For those with some time to spare, you might enjoy:

Clearing Up Mysteries -- The Original Goal

http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/cmystery.pdf

"Put most briefly, Einstein held that the QM formalism is incomplete and that it is the job of theoretical physics to supply the missing parts; Bohr claimed that there are no missing parts. To most, their positions seemed diametrically opposed; however, if we can understand better what Bohr was trying to say, it is possible to reconcile their positions and believe them both. Each had an important truth to tell us. But Bohr and Einstein could never understand each other because they were thinking on different levels. When Einstein says QM is incomplete, he means it in the ontological sense; when Bohr says QM is complete, he means it in the epistemological sense. Recognizing this, their statements are no longer contradictory. Indeed, Bohr's vague, puzzling sentences -- always groping for the right word, never finding it -- emerge from the fog and we see their underlying sense, if we keep in mind that Bohr's thinking is never on the ontological level traditional in physics. Always he is discussing not Nature, but our information about Nature. But physics did not have the vocabulary for expressing ideas on that level, hence the groping."

>we understand "infinity" just fine.

I enjoyed "Meta Math" by Gregory Chaitin:

http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0404335

"So the set of real numbers, while natural—indeed, immediately given— geometrically, nevertheless remains quite elusive: Why should I believe in a real number if I can’t calculate it, if I can’t prove what its bits are, and if I can’t even refer to it? And each of these things happens with probability one! The real line from 0 to 1 looks more and more like a Swiss cheese, more and more like a stunningly black high-mountain sky studded with pin-pricks of light."

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by eli_gottlieb on Thursday August 11, 2016 @05:50PM (#12271845)
>"So the set of real numbers, while natural—indeed, immediately given— geometrically, nevertheless remains quite elusive: Why should I believe in a real number if I can’t calculate it, if I can’t prove what its bits are, and if I can’t even refer to it? And each of these things happens with probability one! The real line from 0 to 1 looks more and more like a Swiss cheese, more and more like a stunningly black high-mountain sky studded with pin-pricks of light."

Bah! Chaitin makes so much of his discovery that there is randomness in mathematics, but doesn't ever seem to have made the shift to thinking of structures as parametric over randomness.

To wit, generating random real numbers by simply flipping a countable number of coins and writing down the bits is trivial, and from that point of view:

1) An open set is just a set about which we can have finite information.

2) A closed set is just a set about which we can have complete information.

3) A compact set is just one we can quantify over and prove theorems about given only finite information.

4) A continuous function is one that has finite character: producing finite information about an element of the image only ever requires finite information about the argument.

These statements are a bit rough, but hey, if I ever have a gajillion dollars I can spend my newfound spare time merging the computational view on synthetic topology, Chaitin's algorithmic information theory, and the old "Age of Stochasticity" talk to get a view of mathematics that properly accounts for its finities and infinities.

http://www.stat.uchicago.edu/~lekheng/courses/191f09/mumford...

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by wnoise on Thursday August 11, 2016 @10:41PM (#12273105)
See also "abstract stone duality". https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/abstract+Stone+duality
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by 77pt77 on Thursday August 11, 2016 @08:26PM (#12272729)
> if I can’t calculate it, if I can’t prove what its bits are, and if I can’t even refer to it?

That guy is just a constructivist. Nothing new here.

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Thursday August 11, 2016 @06:23PM (#12272069)
It doesn't appear that the set of rel numbers exists. If it did, someone should be able to point to it and say, "this is the set". No one can do that because the available space to present the set appears finite, but producing the set would require an infinite amount of space (assuming you need some exclusive space to represent each number).

It is no surprise that the set remains elusive, it doesn't exist.

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by osoba on Friday August 12, 2016 @10:05AM (#12275694)
The set of real numbers most certainly exists, it is defined as the unique such set (up to an isomorphism) that satisfies the following properties:

It is at the same time a commutative additive group and a commutative multiplicative group such that the two group neutrals aren't the same. Furthermore the multiplication distributes over addition.

There exists a total order relation such that the addition distributes over the order relation and multiplication agrees with the order relation (if (0 leq x) and (0 leq y) then (0 leq x*y)).

Another axiom is required, which comes in many forms (all of which are equivallent) so take your pick, for example the supremum axiom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least-upper-bound_property

You can read about any of this in any texbook of real analysis (for example Spivak or baby Rudin).

If the axiomatic formulation of real numbers doesn't appeal to you, there is another way to define real numbers, namely to contruct them from natural numbers (and you seem convinced that natural numbers indeed exist). You can read about that in the appendix to chapter 1 of baby Rudin (Principles of Mathematical Analysis by Walter Rudin).

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by soVeryTired on Friday August 12, 2016 @01:04PM (#12277142)
By no means am I an expert in this stuff, but don't you need the axiom of choice (or maybe something just a little bit weaker) to construct the reals?

I don't think it's fair to say the reals 'most certainly exist' without being misleading to a layman. They exist given some axioms that are used overwhelmingly often in mathematics, but you can still do some interesting stuff without those axioms, or with their negation.

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by osoba on Friday August 12, 2016 @01:45PM (#12277417)
You're correct. There is one object in all of mathematics that isn't defined (you've got to start from somewhere), it is just assumed that humans implicitly understand this concept, and it's the concept of a set (denoting a collection of objects).

Along with it, certain properties of this object are assumed (among them the ability to choose an element of a non empty set - this is typically called the axiom of choice). For a full list you can take a look at http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Zermelo-FraenkelAxioms.html

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by soVeryTired on Friday August 12, 2016 @05:42PM (#12279009)
But the axiom of choice is logically independent of the other zermelo frankel axioms. You can assume zermelo franked plus choice, and get the standard framework (ZFC) that let's you build the reals.

But you can also assume ZF plus the negation of the axiom of choice, and get a system that is consistent if and only if ZF is consistent. It's not clear (to me, at least) that this other system will let you build the real numbers.

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Sunday August 14, 2016 @12:46PM (#12286268)
Clearly real numbers exist. I just don't believe you can have the set of every single real (they are unlimited).
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by chc on Thursday August 11, 2016 @07:45PM (#12272535)
Sets of numbers aren't physical things. Physical things can't be infinite, but I don't see why you think a set can't. By this thinking, not even the natural numbers can exist, since you can't point to them either.
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by GregBuchholz on Thursday August 11, 2016 @07:56PM (#12272600)
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by witty_username on Friday August 12, 2016 @01:16AM (#12273511)
The universe may be infinite.
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Thursday August 11, 2016 @07:51PM (#12272571)
Natural numbers are easy to write: 1, 2, 3

You can even write a set of them: {1, 2, 3, 4}

You cannot write the set of real numbers.

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by chriswarbo on Thursday August 11, 2016 @08:04PM (#12272637)
{1, 2, 3, 4} is also a set of real numbers. Why is it a valid existence proof of the naturals, but not the reals?
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by Govannon on Thursday August 11, 2016 @08:35PM (#12272764)
Possible linguistic pedantry; he used "a" set of natural numbers, but "the" set of real numbers. It's equally difficult to represent the set of natural numbers.
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Thursday August 11, 2016 @10:37PM (#12273102)
It's not pedantry, it's just what the words mean.

To the question: I'm only saying that the "set of real numbers" and the "set of natural numbers" don't seem to exist.

Despite numerous downvotes, no one has yet produced them here (or even a link to them).

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by orbat on Friday August 12, 2016 @03:34AM (#12273926)
I can't produce the set of all humans on Earth either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Both real and natural numbers can be reasoned about despite their infinite size (and we even know that e.g. there must be "more" real numbers than natural numbers, even though both sets are infinite)

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Friday August 12, 2016 @10:18AM (#12275815)
The set of all humans is produceable, you simply bound by the planet, or solar system.

There are no bounds in the universe that can contain all the real or natural numbers.

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by crististm on Friday August 12, 2016 @09:20AM (#12275366)
If real numbers exist or not is irrelevant. The question is if we can solve some problems by assuming one way or another.
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:43AM (#12273434)
here is a representation of the real numbers: ℝ

and here is one of the natural numbers: ℕ

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Friday August 12, 2016 @12:41PM (#12276990)
How can I select an arbitrary, or even random, element from either?
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Friday August 12, 2016 @03:31PM (#12278162)
Who said that you could?
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Sunday August 14, 2016 @12:51PM (#12286285)
Zermelo?

Axiom of choice says I should be able to select an element from the set of real numbers (assuming it exists; but, I believe the assumption to be counterfactual).

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by DigitalPhysics on Tuesday August 16, 2016 @11:11AM (#12297964)
I agree. Even though the axiom of choice is independent of ZF, I don't think it is self-evident axiom. It actually seems pretty counter-intuitive if you believe in infinite-precision real numbers that have an infinite amount of information and can't be compressed. I have more to say on this in "Digital Physics" (the movie). -Khatchig
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by jsprogrammer on Tuesday August 16, 2016 @03:32PM (#12299960)
According to Wikipedia, Zermelo formulated the axiom of choice.

I think it makes sense though; if I (claim to) have a thing, I should be able to choose/pick/select/point-to it (seems to be almost[?] tautological).

Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by DigitalPhysics on Monday August 22, 2016 @03:52PM (#12338931)
"Say you are playing a game that needs you to pick a real number. If you choose a computable real number, you lose the game. If you choose a real number that is not computable, which the majority real numbers are, then you win. You can imagine yourself choosing a non-computable real number, and winning the game, if you build in the axiom of choice. But in the real world version of the game you will never have enough time or space to non-ambiguously specify this infinitely precise real number which has an infinite amount of non-compressible information (see Kolmogorov complexity)."-Khatchig, from "Digital Physics" (the movie)
Re:What I learned as a hired consultant to autodidact physic... by Retra on Thursday August 11, 2016 @09:16PM (#12272885)
The set of real numbers is as big as the set of functions from the naturals to themselves. In fact, that's a pretty convenient way of modeling the real numbers sometimes: as systematic names for functions on natural numbers.