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Re:Machine Money and People Money by wyager on Monday July 11, 2016 @09:00AM (#12070709)
>I'd also wager that most jobs and companies are not really creating any value

Then who is paying them?

Unless they are being payed by the government, they are obviously creating value for someone (their customers).

If the government gets involved, it's a different story; you have to pay for all government services whether you like them or not, and then the government (which doesn't efficiently respond to market demands) pays for a lot of things that aren't really worth as much to anyone as they cost, but the government buys them anyway because it's someone else's money.

Re:Machine Money and People Money by TeMPOraL on Monday July 11, 2016 @09:22AM (#12070833)
Well, let me clarify my statement, because we're hitting the "meaning of word 'value'" problem here.

I believe that quite a lot[0] jobs and companies do not create value for society, nor that they do create any value that is needed for anything else than perpetuating the market corner they're in. This is the kind of value that I personally care about.

Take marketing, which is my go-to example of industry that's increasingly a "loopy" kind. A lot of money goes into companies trying to outmarket one another, fighting over the same pool of customers. This here is a negative feedback loop that eats up increasing amount of resources for zero gain for the participants. Money for this often comes from marginal temporary gains (i.e. a company manages to sell more widgets before their competitors cancel out their marketing) and borrowing. The industry is big, so that the feedback loop is subdivided into many links forming a chain, one type of company doing work for another. Think about the graphic design studios that do work for on-line and off-line advertising. Their work is valuable to their direct customers (companies that run advertising for other companies), even though the whole value chain loops around and create little value outside of itself.

(Now add to that a lot of new adtech companies playing support roles, for which the business model is bullshiting their clients into believing their solutions actually make marketing more effective...)

The thing is, if most of the advertising industry suddenly disappeared, the world would not be worse off in any way except lots of people who suddenly found themselves unemployed. That kind of points out that a lot of those jobs were of the bullshit kind - a loops within the market that contribute nothing to society except providing employment.

Maybe in a perfect, efficient free market with no information asymmetry and spherical cows, such things would not be possible. But in real world, market is inefficient, and those inefficiencies is what lets such "loops" exist and grow.

[0] - I initially wrote "most", but I might be undercounting the amount of small businesses that support local communities; those are companies/jobs providing real value to a limited, local market, and there's probably very many of them.

Re:Machine Money and People Money by weddpros on Monday July 11, 2016 @11:49AM (#12071859)
Value creation isn't defined "for society", but "for people". Society is not part of the market, people are. And the market determines value -> people determine value. Society is a mean, with no regard to standard deviation.

So most of us create "value for people".

"Value for society" is perhaps "meaning"?

Baking bread has value, and no meaning: people pay for it, but it won't change the world -> it's a bad job, per your definition

People pay for bread to avoid cooking it themselves, and for the pleasure of delicious bread... Giving pleasure is getting closer to meaning, but it's an intrinsic feeling: only the baker can feel it, because made his bread with love.

But delicious bread is more expensive: maybe even "meaning" has a price... I think the "value" you're looking for, which is meaning, can be found in almost any job. A marketer can find meaning in a clever/funny ad instead of a phony one.

So don't expect to "find" meaning in a job, but add meaning to your job instead... and it will add value too ;-)

Re:Machine Money and People Money by riprowan on Monday July 11, 2016 @09:27AM (#12070857)
> Unless they are being payed by the government, they are obviously creating value for someone (their customers).

This is only true provided that a free and fair market exists.

Large corporations are often able to exact monopoly rents through a combination of outright monopolization of key resources or capital, favorable / gameable regulations, and by acquiring competition or substitutes, just to name a few strategies.

This means that you and/or your employer might not be adding value at all, but could actually be destroying value, just like any other sufficiently-ineffective bureaucracy.

Re:Machine Money and People Money by weddpros on Monday July 11, 2016 @09:15AM (#12070797)
Indeed, government spending represents 55% of GDP in France (#2 worldwide)... so most money is spent by the state (ie badly).