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Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by Animats on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:30PM (#12066325)
"However BTreeMap is implemented using a modest spoonful of Unsafe Rust (most collections are)."

Unsafe pure Rust code reflects a lack of expressive power. How raw memory becomes a typed object is a touchy area for arrays. To do collections safely, you have to be able to talk about an array which is partially valid. This is quite possible, but you need formal verification like constructs to do it. You need to be able to express that a slice of an array is valid, even though the whole array isn't.

If you can talk about a slice being valid, and an element being valid, you're almost there. It's a theorem that if an element is adjacent to the end of a slice, the element has some property, and all elements in the slice have a property, then a slice containing the original slice and the element has that property. Using that, you can prove by induction that as you grow a collection, the elements in use remain valid. If the access primitives don't let you access outside the valid range, they're safe.

With some extra predicates and a modest theorem prover, much unsafe code in the collection area could probably be proven safe.

Rather than describing unsafe code as a "dark art", it would be more useful to try to formalize safety in this way. The theory is well understood, and there are many proof of correctness systems around for other languages. It might require a lot of annotation in unsafe code, to help the prover along, but that's not a bad thing.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by Gankro on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:28PM (#12066586)
Agreed that there are more powerful systems to verify this code, but these quickly face diminishing returns relative to their costs.

On the other hand, collections are embarassingly testable. It's never been clear to me that formal methods gain much over thorough fuzzing/unit testing in this context.

(rust's testing falls a fair bit short of thorough unfortunately and there have been a handful of mem safety errors in their impls. although I'm not aware of this ever leading to an exploit in an application. mostly caught quite early with the release trains as a buffer)

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by jerf on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:14PM (#12066804)
http://envisage-project.eu/proving-android-java-and-python-s...

https://research.googleblog.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all...

Yes, you can asymptotically approach correct with testing, but it turns out that surprises can lurk for quite a long time if that's your approach. Of course, that's how most collections code works and what most of the world is built on, so yes, it is generally "good enough", but it is still worth pointing out that it is not necessarily correct, even after being out in the field for decades.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by kybernetikos on Monday July 11, 2016 @03:05AM (#12069336)
Proving something correct is not a pancea either, although it can result in code that is generally "good enough". https://research.googleblog.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all...

> I was shocked to learn that the binary search program that Bentley proved correct and subsequently tested in Chapter 5 of Programming Pearls contains a bug.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by Gankro on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:12AM (#12068842)
This is, to some extent, moving the goal posts. You're considering "total correctness" whereas the focus of this stuff is largely "only" memory-safety.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by jerf on Monday July 11, 2016 @08:59AM (#12070706)
I would have been moving the goal posts if I didn't acknowledge that you generally get "good enough" code from what we're doing now. The point is that even being embarrassingly testable isn't a total panacea, though.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by vvanders on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:51PM (#12066680)
Yeah, was going to say something similar. You shouldn't be reimplementing linked list unless you have a very good reason and if so you should be taking a careful look at what you do.

Rust does a great job of error checking in the 99% case and the 1% of unsafe should be from well vetted libs. No different than trusting the kernel to do the right thing.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by ineol1 on Sunday July 10, 2016 @01:58PM (#12066451)
Derek Dreyer and collaborators are working on specifying what needs to be proven about unsafe code, see http://plv.mpi-sws.org/rustbelt/
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by Animats on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:18PM (#12066541)
That's good. They may have trouble recruiting. They're looking for people who could make upwards of $150K in Silicon Valley and want to pay them at postdoc rates. Glassdoor says €41,595. Their own material has even lower rates.[1]

[1] https://www.mpg.de/8746248/Foerderrichtlinien_Postdoc_en.pdf

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by dikaiosune on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:59PM (#12066721)
That's just the status quo for postdocs and PhD students, AFAICT. And yet universities everywhere still find people to take them up on the deal.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by semi-extrinsic on Sunday July 10, 2016 @06:49PM (#12067643)
Well, the academic and implementation-wise freedoms are huge compared to any SV startup. And you don't need to worry much about financials, nor marketing, nor a million other things that many hackers dislike.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by nickpsecurity on Sunday July 10, 2016 @04:25PM (#12067121)
I agree. I regularly post the amazing work such people produce. A good example is Cyclone, which contributed to Rust's success.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by programLyrique on Sunday July 10, 2016 @06:55PM (#12067659)
Are there lots of opportunities to work on static analysis and theorem proving outside academia, especially in Silicon Valley?
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by amenghra on Monday July 11, 2016 @02:21AM (#12069225)
Static analysis: for sure. Companies with large codebases are interested to understand how their code works, build refactoring tools, find bugs, etc. They have dedicated teams doing this. For example https://github.com/facebook/pfff.

Formal proofs: there are specific applications (see Amazon's use of TLA+). I personally feel nearly every company has a small piece of code that you can justify spending a few weeks/months modeling to ensure its correctness. Also, engineers working on medical devices, avionics, robotics, finance, etc. probably get to prove the correctness of their code.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by adrianN on Monday July 11, 2016 @03:21AM (#12069389)
> Also, engineers working on medical devices, avionics, robotics, finance, etc. probably get to prove the correctness of their code.

Some might, but the relevant ISO standards are ok with testing if you reach sufficient coverage, so generally testing is all that's happening.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by Manishearth on Monday July 11, 2016 @12:16AM (#12068861)
There is ongoing work in formal verification of both Rust and the unsafe code in the stdlib.

However, the average writer of unsafe code will not use formal verification. For them, the nomicon is a very useful resource. And describing it as a dark art is the best way to do it, because unsafe code can be hard and fraught with pitfalls.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by foota on Sunday July 10, 2016 @04:36PM (#12067155)
I don't know much about what I'm about to say, but I've always thought it would be cool to embed some proof language like coq inside the rust compiler so that devs can write proofs that their unsafe code obeys some properties that the rust compiler can use.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by __s on Sunday July 10, 2016 @08:19PM (#12067960)
Wouldn't it be better to skip writing the unsafe code, & have the proof generate proven-safe unsafe rust code?
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by foota on Sunday July 10, 2016 @09:23PM (#12068275)
Aw, see, this is me showing what I don't know :) I was thinking it would be something similar to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-carrying_code except at compile time.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by hinkley on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:18PM (#12066544)
Ouch. If data structures require unsafe operations, doesn't this make Rust's safety a 90/10 solution, and leave a small but credible threat of what are effectively buffer overflow attacks?

Look at all of the programming languages that have had to reimplement their hash tables because someone figured out that you can DDOS a web server by sending requests with just the right query parameters. If there's a bug in hash resizing and it's unsafe code, what could someone make of that?

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by MichaelGG on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:23PM (#12066845)
Probably unlikely. There was that thread::scoped issue last year right before 1.0 where some incorrect assumptions lead to an unsafe API that was thought safe. But it was unlikely to happen to app code and be exploitable.

I examined every MS security bulletin over a 2 year period. Nearly all the serious ones were regular C/C++ code memory corruption issues. From what I could tell, Rust would have prevented every one.

MS's .NET had a few serious bugs. They were basically all class loader logic bugs (XBAPs getting more permissions, ways to bypass the CAS system). It's similar to the Java plugin issues: Java applets themselves were never exploitable. But the plugin might accidentally let you do things you're not supposed to. The most user-impacting was stuff in ASP.NET, which is more like an app framework, not a runtime. (There were some "load up arbitrary code/read arbitrary file" bugs IIRC, caused by bad crypto and logic.)

I actually found probably the first memory safety CLR bug[1]. If you loaded a function pointer of an un-jitted function, you could end up with a safe/verified pointer (delegate) to unmanaged code. So there's a true issue, where the implementation is letting you escape and do unsafe things while saying it's verified. But, there's basically no way for this to turn into an app-level security issue. The only use was to escape the .NET code-level sandboxing (CAS).

1: Well to my knowledge -- none were published before. But neither was this one so who knows how many there actually were.

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by dbaupp on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:39PM (#12066640)
> If data structures require unsafe operations, doesn't this make Rust's safety a 90/10 solution, and leave a small but credible threat of what are effectively buffer overflow attacks?

Somewhat gibly, every solution is a 90/10 solution (with different exact numbers of course): there has to be some assumptions/assertions buried in the system somewhere. For instance, correctness of the runtime/built-in types in "safe" languages like Python or Java or Haskell, behaviour of the operating system when doing syscalls (or behaviour of specific machine instructions), or even bug-free-ness of a theorem prover used. Obviously different classes have different rates of errors, but it is still very useful to reduce and focus the places where incorrect assumptions can lead to "critical failures" (memory safety ones) even if one doesn't/can't sink the effort/money into reducing it to (essentially) zero. All of these systems are a tradeoff in some sense, between guaranteed-correctness and things like performance, "productivity", and cost of development.

Rust's power is its ability to significantly narrow the places where memory unsafety is a risk without imposing a cost ("zero cost abstractions"), but still giving all the convention control and power needed for systems programming. There is of course the risk of those places having bugs, but they're explicitly marked and exhaustively testing/auditing the 100 lines of code that build safe abstraction is easier than a whole 1000 or 10000 application that uses it.

> that you can DDOS a web server by sending requests with just the right query parameters

The HashDOS problem is not a memory safety one. In some sense, it isn't even a bug in the implementation but rather the design. The problem arises from using a poor/predictible hash function that allows an attacker to construct many values with the same hash, even if the hash table and the hash function itself are implemented 100% to spec. It is... difficult for a programming language to protect against spec bugs, especially because what is a bug/not helpful sometimes might be desirable at other times.

(Incidentally, Rust's HashMap actually defends against this by default, using SipHash with random keys, which is why it lags behind, say, C++ in some benchmarks that use the default data structures.)

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by XMPPwocky on Sunday July 10, 2016 @03:14PM (#12066802)
For example:

I found a trivially exploitable buffer overrun in the Source game engine. The cause? Somebody used strcpy instead of strncpy... when adding an animated ellipsis at the end of a string.

You really have to try in Rust to get pwned adding an ellipsis to a string.

(And yes, tools should (and probably would) have caught that bug. But they either weren't used, or didn't catch it, so...)

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by chrismorgan on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:46PM (#12067848)
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by pcwalton on Sunday July 10, 2016 @02:23PM (#12066561)
> If data structures require unsafe operations, doesn't this make Rust's safety a 90/10 solution, and leave a small but credible threat of what are effectively buffer overflow attacks?

No worse than JavaScript, Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby, Go, ..., all of which implement their hash tables in C.

How many production server side apps do you know of that have been compromised due to memory safety problems in the core hash table data structure?

Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by geodel on Sunday July 10, 2016 @07:11PM (#12067720)
Go's implementation is in Go + may be some assembly.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by yberreby on Monday July 11, 2016 @06:28AM (#12070084)
That doesn't make it immune to memory unsafety, because the initial implementation had to be written in something other than Go, namely C. And the current compiler was compiled by an older compiler, which was itself compiled by an older one, ..., which was itself compiled by the initial Go compiler, written in C.
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by b2384912 on Monday July 11, 2016 @08:06AM (#12070435)
Are they seriously not using an interpreter to compile the current version with itself?
Re:The Rustonomicon: The Dark Arts of Advanced and Unsafe Ru... by mcguire on Monday July 11, 2016 @10:58AM (#12071479)
"Reflections on Trusting Trust", Ken Thompson.

https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thomp...