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Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kamaal on Thursday July 07, 2016 @10:34AM (#12049551)
As an Indian when I come back from overseas this the very first problem I notice, especially when I return from a long trip. The problem is far deep than one can imagine.

A city like Bangalore has almost an impossible amount of scooters on roads. Almost every house has at least one, and most homes have easily 1 for every two people staying in the home. And its not like US where there are laws on building homes. People take a 1200 sqft plot and build 4 floors, with 4 families, so at least 6 two wheelers for a small plot of land. This is even possible because auto rickshaws and buses have gotten expensive. Public transport of any kind is expensive, unpredictable and not worth when you look at the overall comfort and economics of having our own scooter.

At the other hand trees are being cut at an alarming rate. The area where I stay, around 15 years back, had a drive where students from an agricultural campus plotted a tree per home. In the time since a countable few trees remain. People cut trees for various reasons, some which are down right stupid. Reasons go like- A big tree will attract birds who will in turn crap on our cars/scooters, or that chirping birds disturb their morning sleep to impossibility of cutting the tree if grows too high.

The garbage landfill are full. So the government often doesn't collect garbage on time. Sometimes even a whole month passes before the garbage is collected. So you have massive piles of trash(Medical and all other toxic waste included) piling right at the corner of the lane. This causes mosquitoes to breed, and then diseases like dengue spread. The most obvious solution people around the place work to is burn the trash, causing all this toxic fumes to now mix in the air and reach almost everyone's lungs in the area.

On top of this comes industrial pollution. Rivers and lakes are being polluted, encroached and destroyed almost everywhere. Bangalore's lakes have almost disappeared. Many remaining are now cesspools. There was a lake which caught fire recently.

India needs something on the lines of Clean air act, and clean water act urgently. Feasibility of implementation remains a problem though.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by douche on Thursday July 07, 2016 @10:40AM (#12049581)
Are most of those scooters 2-stroke or 4-stroke? At that scale, the efficiency and emissions differences could make a big difference.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by rsync on Thursday July 07, 2016 @10:47AM (#12049632)
They're two-stroke. Small engines in the developing world are typically terrible - very dirty, very noisy ... and also cheap and easy to fix.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kartD on Thursday July 07, 2016 @10:53AM (#12049668)
Don't think so, India is typically 4 stroke because of pollution norms and 4 strokes are more fuel efficient which we're very sensitive to.

Frankly, India's problem can only be fixed by population control. If Sanjay Gandhi hadn't been an idiot and forever poisoned the idea of population control, India would be much better off, especially if we can get the population to around 300M - 500M

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by mc32 on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:07AM (#12049769)
I agree pop growth is an issue... But asking the pop to drop by two thirds is out of bounds. You cannot get that drop without natural decline over many generations or some kind of dreadful calamity. Natural decrease will happen but over generations, with the expected economic consequences of fewer people contributing to an economy. Maybe Japan can show the way, but so far, they are still basing their economy on growth which is incongruous with their demographics and it hasn't worked out too well and seems to be headed towards deterioration, barring external changes (like importing young people).
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kartD on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:55AM (#12050093)
Unfortunately, resource war may likely force this to happen. It is not environmentally feasible to support such a large population with a high standard of living and being environmentally friendly.

Frankly, the whole world is going to have to get in line.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by hx87 on Thursday July 07, 2016 @01:21PM (#12050754)
I find strange this whole idea that economic growth requires population growth. Why can't each person, aided by automation, simply produce and consume more?
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by rhinadash on Thursday July 07, 2016 @07:27PM (#12052739)
why not both?
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by LoSboccacc on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:18AM (#12049843)
some decade of this pollution and will happen either way
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kamaal on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:54AM (#12050090)
>>India's problem can only be fixed by population control.

And with tax accountability.

>>If Sanjay Gandhi hadn't been an idiot and forever poisoned the idea of population control, India would be much better off, especially if we can get the population to around 300M - 500M

Wrong solutions lead to mistakes from which it is hard to recover. The ideal solution was industrialization and planned urbanization. Urban population levels today have largely stabilized, and in places steadily falling.

Most couples these days don't have more than one kid. So really we will see a decline in population levels as standard of living, and urbanization levels increase. This is a long term solution, there is no short term solution.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kartD on Thursday July 07, 2016 @01:35PM (#12050848)
I hope you're right and I'd really love for it to happen.

Btw, can you explain the tax accountability part, I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say there?

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kamaal on Thursday July 07, 2016 @06:16PM (#12052425)
Fixing tax accountability mandates fixing income accountability. Once that is done corruption will become impossible.

Best bet currently is cashless transactions. The more we have them, the better. If some one has more than explainable income in the bank they will be forced to show that up in tax returns, if its legal they will have to pay taxes, if its illegal then they face action.

Cash transactions are at the core of why everyday corruption is even possible. Liquid cash is easy to exchange without traceability.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kartD on Thursday July 07, 2016 @06:55PM (#12052628)
Makes a lot of sense. I complete agree. Thanks for the explanation.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by jdietrich on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:29AM (#12049933)
There are still a lot of older two-stroke engines in use. Four-stroke engines from local and Chinese manufacturers are typically crude air-cooled carbureted designs with very high emissions. A modern European motorcycle might produce 20x lower emissions than a typical Indian bike thanks to much stricter regulations.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kartD on Thursday July 07, 2016 @12:27PM (#12050346)
Any references on this? I think most engines are Indian manufactured and India uses emission norms based on European regulation [0] Would be interested to see any data. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Stage_emission_standard...
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by jdietrich on Thursday July 07, 2016 @02:30PM (#12051209)
The regulations are almost meaningless because of corruption.

A majority of drivers in India never took a test - they simply bribed an official to receive a license. Only a fool would pay the Rs 20,000 fee for a commercial vehicle roadworthiness test when the certificate can simply be bought for Rs 1,500. It's easier and cheaper to pay bribes than to work through the official bureaucracy.

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/marianne.bertrand/research/p... http://siteresources.worldbank.org/PAKISTANEXTN/Resources/Ur... http://thewire.in/16474/why-swacch-bharat-type-schemes-will-...

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kartD on Thursday July 07, 2016 @02:52PM (#12051348)
Thanks!

While I agree on the point of vehicles made pre norms, but vehicle manufactured after their adoption are all mostly going to be compliant (although with the VW scam, I'm sure there are going to be significant doubts about whether the vehicles stay that way).

Can't argue on the emission check though, that I definitely believe. One can only hope newer vehicles don't have significant degradation in emissions over time.

I guess the main takeaway is that the Indian government has to enforce the rules more than anything.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by gajjanag on Thursday July 07, 2016 @02:26PM (#12051187)
You are right in general, but note that for instance there are still many 2 stroke auto rickshaws: http://www.autocarpro.in/news-national/karnataka-ban-polluti....

Typically, the game goes as follows: new laws get drafted, local groups such as auto rickshaw unions get together and demand time/cash incentives to move to more expensive, cleaner equipment, local governments grant extensions, and the cycle repeats.

Then there are the general issues plaguing enforcement in India, which are listed in the wikipedia article.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by sliverstorm on Thursday July 07, 2016 @12:57PM (#12050560)
It's easy to believe there's a lot of room for improvement- we've been improving the design of four-stroke engines for decades- but at least they are a huge step-function better than two-stroke.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by Nano2rad on Thursday July 07, 2016 @03:35PM (#12051606)
All bikes and scooters manufactured in India are 4 stroke,that is so for a decade. Only exception is TVS50, it has some exemption.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by vinalk on Thursday July 07, 2016 @10:54AM (#12049678)
No, almost all two wheeler sold in india are four stroke
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by ams6110 on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:08AM (#12049778)
Even so, small air-cooled engines typically have no emission controls and rudimentary carburetors and are quite dirty.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by vinalk on Friday July 08, 2016 @03:32AM (#12054062)
There is a PUC (Pollution under control) certificate that is required to be current (valid for 6 months) and has to be under the prescribed limit. Traffic cops check on this regularly. Systems are in place. Vehicles beyond 12 years are being banned. i think assumptions are dangerous.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kapilkaisare on Thursday July 07, 2016 @10:51AM (#12049654)
4-stroke, but this is anecdotal.
Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by gajjanag on Thursday July 07, 2016 @02:10PM (#12051094)
> This is even possible because auto rickshaws and buses have gotten expensive. Public transport of any kind is expensive, unpredictable and not worth when you look at the overall comfort and economics of having our own scooter.

When I lived in Bangalore, and whenever I visit there, BMTC (the public bus transport provider) has buses at least every few minutes along the main corridors during the day.

They are often crowded, but I don't think I could call the service "unpredictable", beyond the general variations that apply to all means of vehicular transport in Bangalore. Last mile connectivity though is often painful.

The service is indeed expensive, especially when one is sharing a commute with another person.

This said, I really like your summary of Bangalore.

Re:NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent by kamaal on Thursday July 07, 2016 @02:29PM (#12051199)
>>BMTC (the public bus transport provider) has buses at least every few minutes along the main corridors during the day.

Actually definition of city has changed. Bangalore has gotten so big to a point, not all go to the core city for work these days. Plus it takes a lot of time negotiating traffic.

Underground metro is the best bet Bangalore has currently.