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Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by brownegg on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @12:58PM (#1199017)
I am a professional trader, and by almost any definition I operate in the "high frequency" space. First, let's establish that Traders is an authority on the real world of financial markets in the same sense that PC World is an authority in the world of technology.

So I've not read the linked article, nor am I going to. But I will say this: HFT does perform a viable, necessary economic function. A well-functioning capital market absolutely requires this kind of activity.

HOWEVER, like most mainstream-media memes, what gets talked about / opined on is almost never relevant to what is actually important and/or controversial: in this case, the question of whether HFT creates a two-tiered playing field where individual (read: non-technically-sophisticated) investors suffer at the hands of the "pros".

Most arguments against HFT basically say that algorithms are purely predatory and only serve to hurt the performance of large investors. This is naive at best and deceptive at worst; for every share I purchase "ahead of" a big order, a seller has been filled at the price he desired. Every transaction has two sides; you can't just pick one and say they got screwed. The other side has to have done as well as the other did poorly (assuming a fictional frictionless world).

The reality is that HFT requires tons of knowledge and a technology budget of seven figures per annum at the barest minimum, and this provides a very real barrier to entry. What should be talked about, but never is: is that ok? Why or why not? What ramifications does it have?

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by coreyrecvlohe on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:36PM (#1199133)
I'm not a professional trader, like yourself, but from what I've gathered over the last several years of HFT coming up in the news is that it is in fact a low-barrier to entry field. All you need is a decent quant, application designer, and some co-located machines as close as you can get them (and other easily acquired amenities.) So I could make a reasonable bet you could open a HFT firm with a couple hundred thousand, plus the talent. (And I've confirmed this with a few hedge fund guys, and they pretty much agreed.)

And I do completely understand the argument for liquidity: more transactions = more accurate price discovery. But I think problem here is that this entire field is black box, meaning property trading algorithms and trading patterns can and are used within the system. This can allow a trading AI to go out into the market place, look for pattens, and to create and cancel millions of orders within the fraction of a second.

I'm sure you know about the former Goldman Sachs programmer who was charged with theft by the FBI. It was totaled at around 32 megabytes of software code. Not very much. But Goldman insisted that if this code got out into the market it would be detrimental to their business and violate their trades secrets confidentiality clause. Not to mention Goldman's largest profit center in their business is their proprietary trading desk, which is heavily into HFT.

My contention is that if we are really interested in a utility that uniformly benefits the market, then let's have an open source platform that provides that, so we can verify that any of these firms aren't "front-running" their trades.

Thats my opinion. I think a lot of the debate over HFT is just filler, it doesn't matter. The guys who are hip to the scene are already making a killing on it now, and it may last a few more years before we begin to regulate.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by brownegg on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:43PM (#1199149)
Sure, you can get the point where you're placing trades for a couple hundred grand... as long as a lot of things fall into place for you. Writing your own apps? Unless you think you can get talent that is willing to roll the dice and possibly be out of a job in a couple months, you're looking at 12 months x the cost of those people... how much is that? $500k? This isn't framework-style assembly of components. If you want to be competitive, the SLOWEST things you can use are linux and C++.

Colocation agreements usually require a minimum commitment of 12-36 months... probably $10k/mo if you have some rudimentary failover and the like.

I'd say anyone who tries with less than 12 months and $500k to truly burn has 0 shot at success. And if you want to really do it right, you're looking at an order of magnitude more.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by rgarcia on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:24PM (#1199092)
There are lots of markets with high barriers to entry.

Does the fact that Kinkos invests millions in fancy printers make the photocopying business unfair?

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by jfager on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:43PM (#1199151)
for every share I purchase "ahead of" a big order, a seller has been filled at the price he desired.

But they would have been filled at the price they desired if they sold directly to the big order, as well. The end effect of the hft systems is just to run up the big order to the max of what they're willing to pay, and take their profit as the difference between that max and the original offer (split up between however many of these things managed to make it over to the feeding frenzy before the real buyer got what they wanted).

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by richardw on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:16PM (#1199068)
Each time you buy ahead of someone they lose the money you make. It's a zero-sum transaction. Instead of being between a buyer and seller, it's now the buyer, you and the seller. You make enough money over the year to justify the seven-figure technology budget, and all of your profit has to come from the other two parties. (Well, and the money you might get as rebates from the exchange.)
Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by brownegg on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:30PM (#1199119)
You make the assumption that they would trade. That assumption is only valid because of people like me.

I don't need to justify my activity, nor do I want to go that route--my point is that the fact that participants can realistically expect a fill is not something that happens because of magic.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by crux_ on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:41PM (#1199148)
> You make the assumption that they would trade. That assumption is only valid because of people like me.

You make the same assumption yourself, every time you trade. The entire purpose of high frequency trading is to beat others to good deals -- not to do a better job of discovering good deals.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by brownegg on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:47PM (#1199162)
Completely untrue. Pure speed games are "winner take most", and brutally difficult. It is very hard to win on speed.
Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by crux_ on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @02:17PM (#1199238)
If it's completely untrue, then I'd like to hear about how your computerized trades ever "discover" a good deal.

I'm fairly sure this is the answer: They don't -- instead, they're just good at noticing, very quickly, the actions of the market actors who do. Which is just another way of saying that they're about beating others to the deal.

(I'd also guess that they're probably also quite good at handing recreational day-trader's asses to them.)

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by ad on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @03:10PM (#1199385)
It's a little less black and white. Suppose I put a guy with a physics PhD in a dark room for a while and he tells me 'with 99% probability, a stock with a price-to-earnings ratio of under 10 will beat the S&P 500 the next year". So whenever a stock's ratio gets below 10, I buy the stock and short the S&P 500 and wait for the bags of money to arrive. In that case, I'm not really relying on noticing the actions of others who have discovered a good deal. Yet, I am keenly interested in beating anyone to the stock when the ratio gets to 9.99. In reality, the market signals are more complicated statistical relationships, they could just as easily arise from someone being very dumb, instead of very smart. Or just the result of random variation that day.
Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by crux_ on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @04:01PM (#1199509)
And yet, even for your hypothetical, you use the term "market signals." ;)

If you look at markets through an information-centric lens, it seems possible to draw a clear distinction between actions that introduce external data and those that are pure acts of deduction, no matter how brilliant.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by andrewcooke on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:51PM (#1199173)
so how do you win? my naive impression is that speed must play an important part, or it wouldn't be called high frequency.

(so speed is important to you, just as water is important to a fish; it may not be what you focus on, but that doesn't mean that it's not critical).

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by brownegg on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:57PM (#1199192)
It's crucial, for sure. But there are trades for which it is the only determinant, and those are dangerous waters.

There are market participants who make their money on pure latency arbitrage; it is a 100% speed game (because anyone can figure out that 1 - 1 = 0).

The majority of HFT falls into the "you have to be fast enough to not get run over" bucket.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by andrewcooke on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @02:41PM (#1199308)
ok, so i think the original thread here is arguing that "being run over" is just the market doing what it would do anyway, without you playing in the traffic and endangering us all...
Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by orborde on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @01:44PM (#1199155)
Let me explain what I think the parent is getting at. Say there is a $20/share sell order registered on the exchange. Then another investor submits a $30/share buy order. As I understand it, at this point HFTs jump in, buy out the sell order at $20/share, and then resell the shares to fill the buy order at $30/share, pocketing a $10/share profit.

The question is, why can't the buy and sell orders be matched directly, allowing the buyer to pocket the discount off the price he was willing to pay, instead of the difference going to an HFT with access to the incoming order stream? What possible benefit is provided to the market by skimming off the difference like this?

The behavior I talked about above is one of the objections to HFT as it's currently practiced, and I'd like to know whether it reflects a misunderstanding.

Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by ad on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @02:29PM (#1199278)
Obviously in this kind of pure arbitrage situation, the world would be a better place If seller A and buyer B are matched up directly. But rarely would this kind of situation come up. There was this nytimes article a while back that describe something similar to the above scenario in context of a 'flash order', and I think everyone thinks this is what HFT is. For a normal retail order this should not happen. But for the flash order described in the nytimes article, the truth is a little more complicated. The buyers and sellers were not immediately matched up in that case. Why? The buyer was trying to hide the fact that they were trying to buy, by using a flash order. The gamble is they could find another pocket of liquidity before sending it to the open market. But in this case the gamble failed-- they would've been better off sending it directly. There are many controversies about flash trading and how it skirts Reg NMS. If you read the flash trading page in wikipedia there's some good info by the BATS people in the Forbes link.
Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by yummyfajitas on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @02:08PM (#1199218)
The buy and sell orders are matched directly. Orders are filled in order of price (best first) and time (first to place order, if price is equal).
Re:How High Frequency Trading Benefits All Investors by richardw on Wednesday March 17, 2010 @04:05PM (#1199521)
Well, by definition it's true for all trades that would occur without your help. In those cases, you're taking a couple cents and making it more expensive for at least one of the other participants. That would cover, say, any institutional investor who is moving into a position.

In terms of you justifying HFT activity, of course not. There have always been advantaged participants and HFT traders are simply those today. But the article was trying to justify HFT as manna for all participants, which seems unlikely considering how much money the industry is extracting for their liquidity-providing services.