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Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by paol on Monday June 27, 2016 @06:50AM (#11985317)
> doesn't mean that in the long run you will obtain the same number of heads and tails

IANAM, but in my understanding that's exactly what it means, if you express "in the long run" as "the ratio tends to 0.5 as the number of tosses tends toward ∞"

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by danbruc on Monday June 27, 2016 @07:15AM (#11985412)
IANAM either, but that seems to be wrong to me. For any finite number of tosses you may certainly not converge to 0.5 even if it becomes very unlikely pretty quickly not to do so. In order for this to be true, it would have to be literally impossible to always get heads on every toss no matter how often you try. But it seems counter-intuitive at the very least that it is inevitable to get tails eventually. What rules out the possibility to get heads over and over again, an infinite number of times? [1] But if it is possible to obtain an infinite number of heads and not a single tails, then it is not true that ratio always converges towards 0.5. In consequence one would have to modify the definition and say that it is only very likely to converge towards 0.5 but that obviously raises the problem that »very likely« sounds a lot like »with high probability« which is the thing we are trying to define, hence this would become a somewhat circular definition.

[1] Actually it must not only be impossible to only ever get heads or tails, it must be impossible to obtain any sequence of outcomes that has not exactly the same number of heads and tails. There is only one sequence of outcomes with only heads and only one with only tails but there is already an infinite number of sequences with all heads but one tails or vice versa. And there is an enormous number of possible sequences with 40 % heads and 60 % tails or any other ratio other than 50/50.

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by daemonomania on Monday June 27, 2016 @07:33AM (#11985497)
If a coin were flipped arbitrarily many times, and it landed on heads each time, and if we had no other information about the coin, a frequentist would say that the probability the coin lands on heads is one.

Now, you might protest and say, "But this is a fair coin that just happened to land on heads arbitrarily many times". But then you are relying on a prior definition of probability in order to justify your objection to the frequentist's claim, since presumably what you mean by "fair" is that the probability the coin lands on heads is 1/2.

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by danbruc on Monday June 27, 2016 @08:02AM (#11985592)
I am not sure if that really addresses my issue. My problem is that I don't see what eventually forces convergences to 50/50. We can use two or even better many coins or, at least superficially equivalent, one coin and let several experimenters take turns. The results will converge towards 50/50 but only with high probability, or at least I don't see why they alway would, i.e. why not at least one sequence could not converge indefinitely. And that seems to lead to an infinite tower of experiments.

When tossing a coin infinitely often the ratio of heads and tails will converge to 50/50 but only in that sense that you have to toss the coin an infinite number of times an infinite number of times. And you can't really stop here because you may still deviate arbitrarily far from the expected outcome. So you toss the coin an infinite number of times an infinite number of times an infinite number of times. And you have to keep nesting your experiments until you made an infinite tower of experiments.

And I have no idea if that would be sufficient to ensure that you can no longer deviate from the expected outcome, my intuition tends towards no, but then again this is certainly far outside of the realm of things for which I would intuition expect to work. Likely I am really just confused and missing something obvious.

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by mvf0 on Monday June 27, 2016 @10:40AM (#11986415)
Your problem is that you don't seem to have sufficient understanding of the concept of limits.
Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by paol on Monday June 27, 2016 @07:23AM (#11985439)
> For any finite number of tosses you can certainly not converge to 0.5

I think you mean "may not" rather than "can not". But yes, that's why you need to resort to limits[0] to understand the problem.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_of_a_sequence

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by danbruc on Monday June 27, 2016 @07:37AM (#11985513)
Thanks, fixed. It understand that it is the limit, but the question I am asking is whether it is possible to always get heads, an infinite number of times. If this is possible, then it is not true that the relative frequency always approaches 0.5 as the number of repetitions goes to infinity. I understand that the probability of obtaining heads an infinite number of times is zero, but does that mean it is impossible? After all any specific infinite sequence of outcomes has probability zero.
Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by paol on Monday June 27, 2016 @08:26AM (#11985702)
> the question I am asking is whether it is possible to always get heads, an infinite number of times

No. By my definition (lay, may be wrong), the probability is the ratio of heads to tails to which we converge at the limit (infinity). The only way for it to converge to 0 is if the probability of heads was 0 to begin with, which would contradict the initial assertion that it was a fair coin.

By the way, from your previous comment it seems to me that you're struggling with getting an intuitive grasp on arguments that rely on infinity. To most people (me included for sure) it's initially difficult to accept that infinity is qualitatively different than a finite amount. Our brain seems to superficially accept the concept, but really it keeps trying to reason about it as a really large (but still finite) quantity.

Are you familiar with the argument of whether 0.999... equals 1? (Spoiler: it does) Some people have a really hard time coming to terms with it, and the fundamental problem for many comes down to the same difficulty of reasoning about infinity. Also, it's a fun way to troll people :)

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by danbruc on Monday June 27, 2016 @06:02PM (#11989884)
No. By my definition (lay, may be wrong), the probability is the ratio of heads to tails to which we converge at the limit (infinity). The only way for it to converge to 0 is if the probability of heads was 0 to begin with, which would contradict the initial assertion that it was a fair coin.

This seems problematic to me. You can not perform an infinite number of coin tosses and know to what the relative frequency converges. So how do you conclude that a fair coin has probability of 0.5 for heads then? I can't really put my finger on it, but that argument is somehow circular. The probability is what the relative frequency converges to and I can not get anything other than 0.5 because that means to probability would have to have been not 0.5 to begin with. I can really only say that I disagree, I just can't pin it down exactly.

Are you familiar with the argument of whether 0.999... equals 1? (Spoiler: it does) Some people have a really hard time coming to terms with it, and the fundamental problem for many comes down to the same difficulty of reasoning about infinity.

I am aware of that and it seems totally obvious to me. And I also certainly know that infinity is not just a really huge number, but I am not sure I internalized that well enough to not make any mistakes because of the difference. Actually I am pretty sure I make mistakes because of that.

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by kgwgk on Monday June 27, 2016 @03:18PM (#11988692)
There are different ways to "approach 0.5 as the number of repetitions goes to infinity": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_of_random_variable...

I think in this case you have "convergence in probability" (but I've not read carefully the discussion). There is a stronger form, "almost sure convergence", where there is exact convergence with probability one (i.e. in some cases there is no convergence, but those happen with probability zero).

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by danbruc on Monday June 27, 2016 @05:43PM (#11989754)
That is exactly what I mean. We try to establish what a probability of 0.5 means, i.e. that the relative frequency converges to 0.5 if the number of trails goes to infinity, but that is not exactly true because there is a (possibly vanishingly small) set of outcomes where the relative frequency does not converge to 0.5. This in turn forces us to state that the relative frequency only converges with high probability, but now we have used a probability in our definition of probability, i.e. we made some kind of circular argument. I just skimmed the article you linked and I am not sure if I read it before so I will read it again, but from a first glance it does not look like any definition in there is suitable to avoid the problem.
Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by kgwgk on Tuesday June 28, 2016 @01:57AM (#11991754)
There is no circularity. You're discussing the real-world interpretation of the probability of an event in terms of long-term frequencies. The probability in the definition of convergence is a well-defined mathematical concept that has nothing to do with frequencies.

Edit: thinking more about it, I agree that the passage from mathematical probability to real-world probability is not very satisfactory. But it's not really surprising, the very notion of "real-world" is troublesome.

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by effie on Monday June 27, 2016 @04:49PM (#11989351)
"whether it is possible to always get heads, an infinite number of times" No if we actually make the experiment, for we cannot toss coin infinitely many times. Yes, if we are just considering and measuring all possible infinite sequences. Measure of such mathematically possible sequence is zero, like measure of a point somewhere in a circle is zero. The point exists and is a possible result of choosing a point, but its probability is zero. Thus zero probability does not mean thing is impossible; it is only very unlikely.
Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by danbruc on Monday June 27, 2016 @05:33PM (#11989683)
If an infinite sequence of all heads is a possible outcome, then it is not true that the relative frequency converges to 0.5 in the limit. It is obviously true for many infinite sequences but if all heads is a possibility then it is not true in general.

Just to clarify, I am talking about the frequentist's claim that in the long run the relative frequency becomes the probability, i.e. P(x) = lim[n -> ∞] nx / n where n is the number of trails and nx is the number of trails that yielded x. So again, if an infinite sequence of heads is a possible outcome, then that would mean P(heads) = 1 while the frequentist asserts that it necessarily must become 0.5.

Re:How Bayes’ Rule Emerged Triumphant from Two Centuries of ... by effie on Wednesday June 29, 2016 @01:43PM (#12003239)
Does the frequentist view really claim that infinite sequence nx/n always converges, for all possible runs? That is obviously false. The laws of large numbers only state that probability that the limit of nx/n is equal to 1/2 is 1. This is because all sequences are equally probable and there are overwhelmingly many more sequences that limit to 1/2 than sequences that do not. That is different from saying that the limit is always equal to 1/2, because there are these exceptional cases of low measure like HHHHH..., HTTHTTHTT...