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Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by kens on Thursday June 23, 2016 @02:13AM (#11959167)
The success of the unicodepowersymbol proposal inspired me to suggest a couple characters to Unicode (the Bitcoin sign and IBM's group mark from 1960s mainframes, which were accepted). The point is that Unicode really is open to proposals from random people; you don't need to part of a big company to influence Unicode.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by hypertexthero on Thursday June 23, 2016 @09:35AM (#11960721)
Agreed.

Although I had never worked with the Unicode Consortium, I [submitted a proposal][1] for an international symbol for an observer and it was eventually accepted.

[1]: http://hypertexthero.com/logbook/2015/01/international-symbo...

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by leoc on Thursday June 23, 2016 @02:43PM (#11963412)
Ooh. One reason that's nice is because it adds one of the Smalltalk-72 symbols ( http://www.esug.org/data/HistoricalDocuments/Smalltalk72/Sma... , see p. 16) that was missing from Unicode.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by MichaelGG on Thursday June 23, 2016 @09:50AM (#11960798)
You don't need to be part of a big company, but it certainly helps. Especially if you want to stop a pentathalon or rifle character.

(Top result: http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/rifle-emoji-dropped-unicode-...)

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by jshevek on Thursday June 23, 2016 @01:15PM (#11962690)
That's a shame.

Its one thing to have absolute, iron fisted control over your own platform - its another to intentionally seek to limit people's self expression on other platforms by influencing the standard in this way.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by eridius on Thursday June 23, 2016 @01:23PM (#11962764)
Are you saying that a company with voting rights shouldn't be allowed to have influence on what goes into Unicode? That doesn't make any sense. Also, if you read the article, Apple wasn't the only party in favor of nixing the emoji.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by zeveb on Thursday June 23, 2016 @04:11PM (#11963941)
> Are you saying that a company with voting rights shouldn't be allowed to have influence on what goes into Unicode?

One might have a right to do something and yet be wrong to do it.

Apple had every right to do what they did, but they were completely, totally and undeniably in the wrong to do it. Everyone associated with their action should be ashamed. Honestly, they should all resign: their behaviour demonstrates that they have no business being associated with this sort of work.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by eridius on Thursday June 23, 2016 @04:26PM (#11964043)
Your comment is ridiculously extreme. They were not "undeniably" in the wrong. You think they were wrong, but that is an highly subjective opinion. In fact, I don't even agree that they were wrong to do this at all. I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue against the inclusion of more gun imagery in Unicode.

Also, if you think Apple was wrong, you must also think that Microsoft was (they voiced support), and everyone else at the meeting who agreed with the move. As the article says,

> Davis confirmed to BBC News on Monday that "there was consensus to remove" the emojis, but that he couldn't comment on the details.

So it's clearly not just Apple that thought this was the appropriate move.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by oh_sigh on Thursday June 23, 2016 @06:15PM (#11964698)
Thank goodness for apple and other members which rejected the starter pistol/rifle proposal. Imagine how many mass shootings we've prevented by people not being able to communicate their plans using the rifle emoji.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by nv-vn on Saturday June 25, 2016 @08:41PM (#11978841)
Just like how North Korea isn't "undeniably" wrong in censoring speech to such an extreme. This is a very 1984-esque "solution" to a problem -- don't want to acknowledge positive use of guns? Good news, we can just erase them from our language! The way we treat emoji has some very serious similarities to Newspeak.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by eridius on Saturday June 25, 2016 @09:43PM (#11979029)
That's absurd. Nobody's censoring anything here. Apple not wanting to add a new gun emoji is in no way preventing you from talking about guns. Emoji isn't a replacement for English and nobody is forcing you to "speak" in all emoji.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by jshevek on Thursday June 23, 2016 @01:48PM (#11962987)
> Are you saying that a company with voting rights shouldn't be allowed to have influence on what goes into Unicode?

Obviously not.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by dragonwriter on Thursday June 23, 2016 @02:53PM (#11963498)
You can think a company should have a say and still think it's windy to use that say in a particular way.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by intopieces on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:31PM (#11963747)
Rifle is included in Unicode 9.0, just without emoji presentation.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by EdiX on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:16AM (#11969898)
What does this mean? How can an emoji not have an emoji presentation?
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by intopieces on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:25PM (#11971697)
An emoji cannot be an emoji without having emoji presentation. There is a rifle character that resembles, in form and function, the other Olympic emoji, it's just not sitting in the set reserved for emoji. Any platform that wants to pick it up can use it, they can even put it next to all their other emoji if they want to. Apple, et al did not 'prevent' Rifle from being encoded. They just decided they wouldn't pick it up as an emoji for their platform, and the Unicode conference decided to move it to a different category based on that decision.

There are literally thousands of characters that Apple doesn't encode for their platforms. I haven't heard whether Apple will be supporting:

    Osage, a Native American language
    Nepal Bhasa, a language of Nepal
    Fulani and other African languages
    The Bravanese dialect of Swahili, used in Somalia
    The Warsh orthography for Arabic, used in North and West Africa
    Tangut, a major historic script of China
All of which were added to Unicode 9.

>The two characters will still be part of the Unicode spec, but they'll be classed as black-and-white "symbols" instead of regular emoji

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/06/apple-and-microsoft-pus...

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by josephmx on Friday June 24, 2016 @12:10PM (#11970918)
I assume they reserve the unicode character, but anyone who wants to use it decides what it looks like (so the rifle could look different on different platforms, which isn't a big issue)
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by intopieces on Friday June 24, 2016 @01:28PM (#11971719)
This is always true for Emoji. The platforms always decide what their presentation of emoji will look like, just as they determine what font they will use for the unicode traditional letters. In this case, Apple and others decided they didn't want a rifle emoji, so it was moved to the 'black and white symbols' section so that those platforms wouldn't be 'missing' an emoji, which has other technical implications.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by rbanffy on Thursday June 23, 2016 @05:12AM (#11959706)
Just added the group mark (and these power symbols) to https://github.com/rbanffy/3270font/tree/develop. It was fun. Thanks for giving me an excuse.

http://imgur.com/Sx0lkM8

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by rbanffy on Thursday June 23, 2016 @10:32AM (#11961136)
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by PhasmaFelis on Thursday June 23, 2016 @02:45AM (#11959269)
It's really cool than these things can happen. Still, I can't help but feel like, in a couple of centuries, Unicode is gonna be a goddamn mess.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by ygra on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:57AM (#11959460)
Heck, Unicode is a mess already. But that's mostly because (a) language and scripts are messy, and (b) the original aim was to unify and encompass all existing character sets, and some of those were messy as well.

While there was considerable uproar over Emoji and there still often is over yet another fifteen symbols that everyone thinks no one would ever need or use, the bulk of the Unicode character set is still scripts for human languages. And some of those are only relevant for a very small minority, say, archaeologists. But that's fine. There's enough space, we're nowhere near to running out and Unicode enabled all sorts of cool things in computing that simply were not possible before or only with awful hacks and workarounds.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by jessriedel on Thursday June 23, 2016 @08:36AM (#11960417)
> Unicode enabled all sorts of cool things in computing that simply were not possible before or only with awful hacks and workarounds.

Could you give an example? I don't know anything about this stuff.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by etatoby on Thursday June 23, 2016 @09:07AM (#11960551)
A text file, a webpage, or a database table can only contain textual data in a given encoding.

That's because every byte stored in the file, for example byte number 188, either means "¼" (as it does in ISO/IEC 8859-1, aka. Latin-1 or ANSI), or it means "ỳ" (as in ISO/IEC 8859-14) or "シ" (in JIS X 0201, one of the many Japanese encodings that were devised over the years.)

How do you know which encoding a certain file uses? In general YOU CAN'T and this was the source of many problems and "solutions" which caused even more problems over the years.

Well then, how did you mix symbols from different alphabets, say in a dictionary or in a post that talks about them, like this very post? YOU COULDN'T, short of doing ugly hacks and other subterfuges, like using GIFs for all foreign characters.

Unicode gave a distinct number (or "codepoint") to every character and symbol known to man (within reasonable limits) and this allowed a lot of things that we take for granted nowadays, including this very post, were I just copied and pasted various symbols from their Wikipedia pages and just expect it to work.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by lilyball on Thursday June 23, 2016 @01:45PM (#11962955)
Fun fact: Japanese even has a word for foreign characters, "gaiji", and it's extremely common in Japanese ePUBs to use small square images very frequently for characters not in the current font, using the term "gaiji" in the CSS class names used for these characters. And at least one mainstream ePUB reader has special code to detect these gaiji and adjust its rendering to make them behave better.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by a_t48 on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:40PM (#11963789)
Huh, you've just caused me to reexamine the word gaijin. gai (外) = outside, jin(人) = person\nationality. gaijin(外字) is outside + character. Neat!
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by silluk on Friday June 24, 2016 @02:30PM (#11972220)
Similarly, the word "loanword" (used to describe words borrowed from other languages) is gairaigo 外来語 which is literally 外来 (gairai) "foreign" + 語 (go) "word/language". Japanese is filled with words where you can often figure out the meaning purely from the characters used!
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by dalke on Thursday June 23, 2016 @08:46AM (#11960457)
Conversion between different character codes became much easier. (Å (U+00C5) is canonically the same as Å (U+212B) but the latter exist only for round-trip compatibility.)

Unicode defines normalization algorithms (is é its own character, or e with a modifier character?).

I can have a document which combines English, Russian, Arabic, and Chinese, and expect it to be readable and editable by many different tools.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by vorg on Thursday June 23, 2016 @09:55AM (#11960828)
> I can have a document which combines English, Russian, Arabic, and Chinese

English combines with top-down Chinese, and English combines with right-to-left Arabic, but top-down Chinese and right-to-left Arabic don't combine properly in the same document using Unicode -- the Arabic will be written bottom-up instead of top-down when embedded in the top-down Chinese.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by dalke on Thursday June 23, 2016 @10:10AM (#11960936)
Layout is indeed hard.

I meant something simpler, like: The word 'computer' in English is 计算者 [jì suàn zhě] in Chinese, Компьютер in Russian, and حاسوب in Arabic."

Try that without Unicode.

It's of course possible with TeX, and no doubt other solutions. Which is why I added "and expect it to be readable and editable by many different tools".

(As a real-world use case, look at Knuth's "The Art of Computer Programming" and see how he credits people using their full names, in their own written language.)

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by Tyr42 on Thursday June 23, 2016 @10:50AM (#11961299)
Do you know when you would use 计算着 over 电脑[dian nao]? 计算着 I guess more literally translates to "one who computes", whereas 电脑 translates to "electric brain" which is a way more fun image, but I have no idea how the usage varies.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by gurkendoktor on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:44PM (#11963821)
I am not a native speaker and terrible at googling this, but I've once heard that 電腦 was originally the Taiwanese way of saying it and 計算機 the Chinese way, in the same way that 'program' is still called 程式 on one side of the strait and 程序 on the other, or 'internet' is either 網絡 or 網路. The names of movies and video games are also generally different (PRC, HK, TW).

計算機 is a calculator, not a computer, in Taiwan: https://tw.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=計算機

Compare with Baidu in the PRC: http://image.baidu.com/search/index?tn=baiduimage&ie=utf-8&w...

Edit: Oops, I didn't even realise that the parent poster asked about 計算著. That one I've never seen.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by et-al on Thursday June 23, 2016 @01:35PM (#11962862)
计算着 [jisuanji] is the older usage that harkens back to the days when computers were mainframes and terminals and not in every household. Generally everyone says 电脑 [diannao] these days.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by ximeng on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:42PM (#11963801)
计算机 jisuanji would be a hardware computer, 计算着 jisuanzhe computing as an ongoing action, and 计算者 jisuanzhe computer in the sense of one who computes
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by dalke on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:09AM (#11961526)
No clue. I did a copy and paste.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by DarkLinkXXXX on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:05AM (#11961484)
Isn't that not not a problem with Unicode, but the text rendering engine? Or is this indeed a spec bug?
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by vorg on Thursday June 23, 2016 @11:46PM (#11966153)
Right-to-left script rendering is part of the Unicode spec, whereas top-down scripting for Chinese is a font issue.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by Arnt on Thursday June 23, 2016 @09:57AM (#11960849)
Someone I know worked at a company that sells a content management system with version control. Bigcos use it to keep and update lots of marketing materials and manuals. Those responsible for product x or area y can see what's been added by others, and update their own versions, and record that.

In this way, new FAQs and other updates spread to all the markets easily.

It's vastly easier to do this stuff when all the documents use the same text encoding. Even if noone can read everything, the fact that everything uses the same encoding means that any pair of languages you can read are technically readable.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by akiselev on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:12AM (#11959360)
What isn't a huge goddamn mess after several centuries? If there's one thing we humans don't deal with well, it's entropy.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by js8 on Thursday June 23, 2016 @04:25AM (#11959564)
Actually, humans, just like any other living organism, deal with entropy quite well - they dump it onto others. :-)
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by copperx on Thursday June 23, 2016 @09:25AM (#11960658)
Onto the next generation :/
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by 1024core on Thursday June 23, 2016 @08:30PM (#11965362)
The Pantheon in Rome.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by kristianp on Thursday June 23, 2016 @02:48AM (#11959281)
What's the IBM group symbol? I can't find the words IBM in [1].

[1] http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2B00.pdf

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by kens on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:04AM (#11959335)
The group mark will be U+2BD2. For details see https://github.com/shirriff/groupmark
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by ktsmith on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:17AM (#11959375)
You can find it here where it says it's in Stage 6 which I would imagine why it's not in the current chart: http://unicode.org/alloc/Pipeline.html

2BD2 GROUP MARK 2015-May-05 Accepted 2016-May-29 Stage 6

The bitcoin symbol is in there too.

Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by intopieces on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:27PM (#11963715)
You don't even need to be part of a big company to go to their meetings. I went to their conference in San Jose just to see the proposal for the Chinese Take-out box/chopsticks/fortune cook emojis. I met a ton of nice people, too.
Re:How a comment on Hacker News led to 4½ new Unicode charac... by paxcoder on Thursday June 23, 2016 @03:57PM (#11963879)
The company logo? Why? Would you please get the copyleft glyph in it? Seems more important.