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Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by infodroid on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @08:27AM (#11953315)
I reviewed the discussion but I still can't understand what the controversy is about. According to the following explanatory note from the GNU project, developers don't have to assign copyright to the FSF for it to be an official GNU project:

When the developers of a program make it a GNU package, they can decide either to give the copyright to the FSF so it can enforce the GPL for the package, or else to keep the copyright as well as the responsibility for enforcing the GPL.

Source: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.en.html

---

FYI this is the start of the discussion thread:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/nano-devel/2016-05/msg000...

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by davexunit on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @09:05AM (#11953536)
>developers don't have to assign copyright to the FSF for it to be an official GNU project

This is correct, but it's up to the maintainer to decide if their project will require copyright assignment from all contributors or not. I send patches to a couple of GNU projects, Guile and Guix. Guile requires copyright assignment, Guix does not.

Assigning copyright to the FSF is very much unlike assigning copyright to a for-profit company. The terms that you sign and agree to with the FSF are very reasonable and they protect the developer from having the license changed should the FSF be taken over by people that would want to abuse your contributions.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by snowwrestler on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @10:30AM (#11954211)
> Assigning copyright to the FSF is very much unlike assigning copyright to a for-profit company. The terms that you sign and agree to with the FSF are very reasonable and they protect the developer from having the license changed should the FSF be taken over by people that would want to abuse your contributions.

This does not comport with my understanding of how copyright works. Once you transfer your copyright to someone, the creative work is entirely theirs. So what standing would you have to object to what they do with it? It belongs to them now, not you.

It doesn't matter what an agreement says if you don't have standing in court to enforce it.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by davexunit on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @12:20PM (#11955047)
It belongs to them now, but under the conditions that I agreed to. So, they have to keep the source free or they will have violated a legally binding agreement with me.
Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by snowwrestler on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @02:15PM (#11955854)
What is the penalty for that violation?
Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by cyphar on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @09:28PM (#11958305)
The same penalty as with violation of any other type of contract. They would also lose any rights under that contract because they violated their side of the deal.
Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by cygx on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @12:32PM (#11955134)
Once you transfer your copyright to someone, the creative work is entirely theirs.

Note that in jurisdictions like Germany, it's impossible to sign away our version of copyright ('Urheberrecht', creator's rights): At most, you can grant exclusive usage rights.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by ArneBab on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @10:35AM (#11954255)
They set conditions (we will keep it free) just like any software contract where you only get the software if you promise to adhere to some rules.

I don’t think the FSF ever violated the condition, so there’s nothing you can do to test whether a court would follow that interpretation.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by snowwrestler on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @12:18PM (#11955027)
Software contracts with conditions are license agreements. You get to use Windows, Ubuntu Linux, Photoshop, Facebook, etc. as long as you adhere to the terms of the license.

You don't get the copyright. That's still held by the software company. That's how they can force you to adhere to their conditions--they own the software and they can take away your license.

But if they gave you the copyright, they couldn't take it away anymore, so you would have no reason to follow their conditions any more.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by cyphar on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @12:35PM (#11955157)
Contracts and copyright law are wildly different things. It's misleading and incorrect to conflate the two together.
Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by snowwrestler on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @02:25PM (#11955929)
Yes, that's my point--the person I replied to was confusing copyright assignment with buying software, and I am explaining how they are different.
Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by cyphar on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @09:23PM (#11958289)
> Software contracts with conditions are license agreements.

That sentence is blatantly false. A contract and a license are different concepts and bound by different laws. That was my point.

In addition, they weren't confused. It looks like you were:

> They set conditions (we will keep it free) just like any software contract where you only get the software if you promise to adhere to some rules.

"keep it free" refers to freedom (as in they will only ever use free software licenses). In fact the FSF also states they will only ever use licenses that are in the same spirit as the GPLvX. It is a contract, because you are assigning your copyright to them -- you have to have an agreement in place in order to do that. Software licensing is a different thing. The FSF actually requires you to give them your copyrights if you want to contribute some code to a project they manage. Many other projects do not do this, so the structure for things like Linux (and some GNU projects) is different and is based on licensing.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by snowwrestler on Thursday June 23, 2016 @02:00PM (#11963087)
Well a license is just a form of contract. In particular, a license is only valid for the term of the licensing contract--once the term expires, so does the license. This permits the licensor to compel the licensee to comply with conditions during the term of the contract. If they don't, the contract is violated and the license is withdrawn.

Copyright assignment is more like a sales contract (at least in the U.S.). It doesn't have a term, but rather is complete once executed. Once it's executed, the new property owner can do what they want with the property. This makes it hard for the seller to compel the buyer to comply with conditions once the sale is done. Like selling a car to someone and saying "if you buy this car you can't drive it to to Texas." Once it's titled in their name, they can drive it wherever they want.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by cyphar on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:50AM (#11970185)
> Well a license is just a form of contract

Free software licenses (and some proprietary software licenses) are not contracts in any meaningful way. They do not require any of the tests of contract law (meeting of minds, bystander, willingness to be bound, etc) and are implicit agreements (to be fair, contracts can also be implicit but that's not what people are talking about when they say "contracts"). The reason you have to obey the GPL is because the only way you can do anything with the software is by obeying the terms of the license (assuming it's not dual-licensed). That doesn't smell or sound like a contract to me.

> Copyright assignment is more like a sales contract

Except free software copyright assignment gives you non-exclusive rights to licensing anyway (so you only lose the power to sue people, which is not something that software developers do regularly). In addition if you sign a contract to buy a car under the condition that you will drive it to Texas and you don't drive it to Texas, then the contract is voided. Same with houses, or anything else you could possibly sell.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by avar on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @09:10AM (#11953567)
As I recall the terms include some phrase like "we might change the license to be similar in spirit to the existing one" which gives FSF and anyone who controls it in the future a lot of wiggle room.

E.g. the GPL v2 to v3 transition was enabled by that, with the introduction of patent/"TiVo" clauses. No reason they couldn't make more drastic changes in the future.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by davexunit on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @09:16AM (#11953612)
That means that the contributors agreed to license the code as "GPL version 2, or at your option any later version", which means that they are amenable to changes to the GPL. The FSF could not, however, make a GPLv4 that was a proprietary software license or something. I wouldn't have signed copyright assignment forms if that was a possibility.

Really, FSF copyright is a very good thing, and you can even do it completely digitally in the US and Germany (used to be that you had to use snail mail to receive forms and send them back). People shouldn't get scared away from contributing to GNU projects that choose copyright assignment. There's no better place to protect the GPL than at the FSF.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by Addile on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @01:25PM (#11955538)
And that's where I don't fully agree. There are many projects licenced under "GPL v2 or later" and they don't need copyright assignment. Copyright assignment is huge and opens the door for way too many legal stuff.

Also Copyright is a pretty US thing. Law differs and many Countries don't actually allow it. Also since you brought up Getmany already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Germany#Trans... Germany is such a country and even if you were to assign copyright to them it would be legally void to the best of my knowledge. And also other countries that base it on moral rights.

Copyright law is very different between countries and way too strong to just transfer for such a use. If they really wanted to, they should have made a license to handle it exactly the way they wanted.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by cyphar on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @09:30PM (#11958316)
The problem is that in order to have the ability to register their copyright and do meaningful enforcement actions in the US, they need copyright assignment. Copyright cares about authorship, so if they don't have "authorship" (read: own the copyright) then they have very little power to enforce the GPL.

Some other people argue it's not necessary, and while that might be true, it's better to be safe than sorry. Not to mention that all GNU projects are GPLv3-or-later anyway (so any contribution would be able to be upgraded anyway since it's licensed in such a way that you can use it under GPLv4). If you refuse and license your change under GPLv3, it won't get merged.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by bonzini on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @11:24AM (#11954644)
It says:

5. FSF agrees that any program "based on the Works" offered to the public by FSF or its agents or assignees shall be offered in the form of machine-readable source code, in addition to any other forms of FSF's choosing. However, FSF is free to choose at its convenience the media of distribution for machine-readable source code and may charge a fee of its choosing for copies.

Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by ArneBab on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @10:36AM (#11954262)
“similar in spirit” is a pretty strong condition, since there are lots of philosophy texts on the GNU pages which make it clear what “similar in spirit” means. A court would likely rely on these to decide a case.
Re:Nano is no longer a GNU project by supercheetah on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @08:39AM (#11953377)
Interesting. It looks like the Nano devs have misunderstood what can be called a GNU package. If they don't assign copyright to the FSF, but want it to still be a GNU package, they just have to declare that they're taking responsibility for licensing enforcement.