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Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Friday June 17, 2016 @11:29PM (#11926923)
Consider the software business. It's probably the most free market industry in existence, with a near total lack of government regulation, standards, interference, subsidies, price fixing, licensing, and oversight (with the exception of the disastrous patent system).

And look at the results: an ongoing, decades long explosion of new products, innovation, millions earning a great living, costs of software relentlessly driven to literally zero, revolutionary new technology every couple of years - does anyone think that could be made better with socialism?

On the other hand, the industries with the most government intervention seem to be doing the worst - finance, health care, higher education.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by kristopolous on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:20AM (#11927091)
How does that have to do with an inability of young college graduates to make ends meet? A large number of are financially insolvent and rely on payday lenders, large debts, and the gig-economy.

Saying "That's too bad for them" while new billions are made on top is very Louis XVIth. The population at large will, eventually, try something to address this problem. It'd be nice to try to be on top of it early and handle it peacefully.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by cgm616 on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:28AM (#11927110)
The software market, the Internet market, the entire ecosystem, it's working because the price of entering is lower. This isn't because of lesser regulation or a lack of standards and oversight, it's because over the past decade it has become so easy for anyone with an Internet connection to contribute. Not necessarily make the next best software business, but contribute to open-source (a decidedly un-capitalistic idea), provide opinions and give insight, and share.

This ability for anyone to connect and share with thousands of other people exactly as we are now is exclusive to this internet platform. That is the driver of success, of innovation, of technology and future. Every other media, every other market, is prohibitive to newcomers. There's a reason that disrupting a market is so praised, because it is something most everyone who tries, fails.

On the Internet, in software, disruption is the name of the game. It's a brand new sandbox that anyone can play in.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:43AM (#11927153)
> This isn't because of lesser regulation or a lack of standards and oversight, it's because over the past decade it has become so easy for anyone with an Internet connection to contribute.

If the government required anyone writing software to have a license, and a permit, and have the result be approved by an agency before it was distributed, there'd be orders of magnitude less people entering the business.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by y4mi on Saturday June 18, 2016 @05:27AM (#11927722)
you're not required to have a licence to do whatever you want in your home as well.

you can make your own chairs, furniture, oven, whatever...

its just easier to share your homemade products/code with the community over the internet, which makes software development look less regulated.

and you sure as hell won't be able to get a job outside of startups/web development without a license either.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @05:34AM (#11927742)
> in your home

That's why I mentioned "distribute".

> without a license

I don't know any software engineers who have a license, or that a permit is required, or government approval of any sort.

You can bake cookies for yourself all you want, no problem. Try and sell them, and you need to get permits, inspections, etc. Try and cut hair, you need a license.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by y4mi on Saturday June 18, 2016 @07:03AM (#11927947)
licenses such as LPIC and its windows equivalents hold a surprising significance in (dev-)ops. and the java certificate is often a requirement from what i've seen on my job hunts.

i admit that i can't say anything beyond this though.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @03:13PM (#11930127)
Those are not licenses, as in they are not required by law for anything. I wrote a commercial Java compiler a while back for Symantec, and no permits nor license nor review whatsoever was required by the government to do it.

As for running my own software business, my only involvement with the government is registering the business and paying the taxes.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:40AM (#11927145)
Open source is a very capitalist idea. It thrives because people have discovered that more money can be made with open source than with closed source. (The notion that it is un-capitalistic may stem from it not being very intuitive how it can make money.)
Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:49AM (#11927164)
A friend of mine is CEO of a medium sized company. His only product is software that helps back end servers run faster. The software is open source, he gives it away to any company that wants it.

His company is doing extremely well. How is that possible? After companies use it for a while, they come back and are happy to buy a support contract rather than manage it themselves.

His business would not exist without open source software that his company developed.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by dalke on Saturday June 18, 2016 @10:51AM (#11928858)
I have an open source package. It comes in two forms: a no-cost one you can just download, and full-cost one where you pay me and I provide support. Both are MIT-licensed. It's a Python library and set of command-line tools for chemical similarity search.

I've had a few sales. Those plus support renewals make me about $25K/year. Consulting and custom software development augment my income.

Recently I was at a workshop, and found that actually many companies use my software. I had no idea it was so widely used. One even presented the results of some 60 CPU days spent using my software. They used the no-cost version, and had never considered paying me for it.

(I asked. They said they had no internal mechanism to give gifts to open source developers. I said I could offer them a PO. They said they would need to justify it. I said I had a new version with better performance and more capabilities. It was a frustrating conversation.)

I am not convinced that the open source, no cost, business model, where you hope that people are "happy to buy a support contract", will work for this combination of product and field. It may be that there simply aren't enough users in my field to support an open source company in the way you describe.

So while I know it works for some - as you said - I believe for me and this product, a non-free/open source license would make me more money than a free license.

I have a few concrete problems I've come across in selling free sofware.

Given that I distribute a software product, how do I provide an evaluation version of the newer, better library? Do I simply trust that they will either pay me or not use it? If they do use it anyway, do I shrug my shoulders and walk away?

How do I do market segmentation? That is, if a non-profit research site, or academic group, wants to use my software, do I give them a discount? But these are also the groups where some graduate student might look at it, see that it's open source, and put it on their github account.

Which is fine. I support them doing that. But I need to price things appropriately. So it's odd that I may need to charge more for academic groups than I do pharmaceutical company (pharma being my main customer base), because academic groups are riskier sales than pharmas.

Now, I could simply give it away at no cost, and hope there is enough support contract interest for the future. But I get the strong sense that people will do a one-off purchase to get the software even if they aren't willing to get a support contract after they download and start using it.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @03:35PM (#11930229)
My friend said that actually only a small percentage bought support. But he was happy about that, because the user base was so large that even a small percentage made for a lucrative business.

It's just a variation on give away the razor, sell the blades. Give away the music, sell the concert tickets. Open source enables reaching a much, much larger audience than would otherwise be possible, and at a much lower cost than doing advertising. (You also don't have to expend time and treasure dealing with piracy and the inevitable customer problems and anger with your DRM mechanism.) Another benefit is customers fix bugs and feed those back to you, so you've got a stronger product.

Another model for making money off of open source is using it as an advertisement delivery platform. We're all familiar with that stuff.

I also have a friend who expended a great deal of effort creating a very nice dev tool. He wanted to get paid for it, and made it closed source, pay only. An expensive marketing campaign is necessary to make that work (like what Coverity does), but he didn't have one. He made zero sales and was bitter about it.

I don't know your particular situation, and it might be worth a try for you to go pay-only. But be prepared to invest a lot in marketing.

As for the trust thing, my experience is that trusting customers works. Treat them as worthy of trust and respect, and they will respond likewise. Treat them with suspicion and DRM, and they'll live down to that expectation.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by dalke on Saturday June 18, 2016 @04:16PM (#11930416)
> "much larger audience"

Yes, that is the problem.

The biggest conference in my field has ~200 people. There might be 10,000 people around the world who might ever use my software in one way or another.

They tend to work in one of the one to two hundred or so companies doing drug discovery cheminformatics.

A "small percentage" of 200 is only a handful of companies. That's not enough to make a living. Rather, in that case it's more profitable to do custom software development in that case than off-the-shelf software. Because (oddly) people are willing to pay more for special one-off solutions than general solutions.

While if 10% of the field was willing to pay me once, and the handful of companies willing to pay support, then that's good money.

> "Another benefit is customers fix bugs and feed those back to you, so you've got a stronger product."

I've heard that a lot. I've also been doing free software in this field for 20 years. I've only ever received a handful of minor bug fixes.

My users are computational chemists and their IT support staff. They are not professional programmers. It's easier for them to pay me money to fix bugs than for them to do it.

Also, at some pharmas, code needs to be reviewed by the lawyers before being sent out.

I know one company that distributed source under the GPL, then found that their customers weren't willing to upgrade. Because they had made local changes, and found it too difficult to go through the lawyer review in order to send the changes upstream. It was easier for them to ask for new features instead.

> "advertising delivery platform"

Sure, and in-app sales. Except my software works on proprietary chemical compounds. I don't have access to the machines or the data, and no pharma in their right mind will allow me that sort of control of their in-house informatics platform.

> be prepared to invest a lot in marketing.

I wish to clarify that I am not looking to make my software proprietary. My argument is that I'm sure I could make more money with proprietary software than with free software.

Even if I make it proprietary, customers will get full source, no DRM, and the right to redistribute after (say), 10 years.

As for marketing, and as I found out, most people know of my software, and already use it. The problem is one of conversion less than marketing. Which is still a form of marketing, but less expensive.

> trusting customers works

So, one potential lead said they might buy my software. I gave them my list price. They said they didn't have the money to pay full price so could they get it for only $10K? This London-based organization has a full-time cheminformatics staff member, and over $100M in funding. I don't know if I should trust them, but I suspect it's a negotiating tactic.

Again, my point isn't to say that open source is a bad approach. I agree that there are business models where it does work. But it's not a panacea.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @04:52PM (#11930544)
I would not argue that it works in all cases, my only point was that open source is very compatible with capitalism and lots of companies find it very profitable to go open and free source.

> I suspect it's a negotiating tactic.

Of course it is!

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by dalke on Saturday June 18, 2016 @05:20PM (#11930654)
Certainly. So, what does "trust" mean?

Do I trust them to undercut the price I think is reasonable? Do I trust them to tell me what the software is really worth to them? Do I trust that they will value my time appropriately?

That's why I have a problem with the word "trust" in this context.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @06:01PM (#11930820)
Trust means if you make a deal with them, they'll abide by the terms.

Trust does not mean they won't negotiate hard to get the best deal they can. Trust does not mean they are obliged to show you their cards. Trust does not mean they value your time as you would.

I suspect you'll be very disappointed if you consider the latter to be trust issues.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by dalke on Saturday June 18, 2016 @07:37PM (#11931118)
I understand what you are saying. I want "trust" to mean something more than "will follow the terms of a deal."

Instead, trust is a highly multi-dimensional, culturally context-dependent concept. As such, I get little guidance from the phrase "trusting customers works", when I know that each aspect of trust has its own set of parameters, including some where I have no experience to guide me.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by open-source-ux on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:30PM (#11929264)
Could your free version still be sold for a price but with limited or no support? For example, two licences

1. Commercial license, no support: pay $/£/€ amount

2. Commercial license with support: pay $/£/€ amount

By commerical use, I mean companies or academic insitutions. Option 1 is cheaper, but presumably more than affordable for companies who want to use the software.

I guess what I'm saying is that even when the software is open source, can you stipulate that payment is required if used by a commerical company or academic institution? Some companies may not pay, but I'm guessing many other companies will be happy to pay for option 1. Or am I being hopelessly naive?

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by dalke on Saturday June 18, 2016 @08:08PM (#11931206)
While possible, that runs into another question: why would someone pay for support when they already have the software?

There are a few reasons: 1) they want to support new feature development, 2) they want to support me personally, or 3) they want support with understanding the API or doing integration.

I think most F/OS software has lousy documentation. I think that's because developers rarely like to write documentation, because free documentation writers are rare as hen's teeth, and because users aren't willing to pay for documentation.

Which is great if you want to sell your consulting services as well. That is, if the tool solves a problem, but is a hassle to use, then you get paid for configuration and customization. But that disincentivizes putting together a solid API with extensive documentation, where people don't need your help to understand how everything works.

> "even when the software is open source, can you stipulate that payment is required if used by a commerical company or academic institution?"

There are two issues. First, for the software to be open source, then there can be no legal mechanism to require later payment. What you propose is not "open source".

That said, it's might be possible to have a side agreement which does that. That agreement might not be legally enforceable, but a company will likely comply anyway, because they made the agreement in the first place.

But there's no way I'll obligate an academic group to pay me $20K should one of the grad students, or student with access to the shared disk, decide to redistribute it, after seeing that it's under an open source license. There's no way that will do me any long-term good.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @03:39PM (#11930253)
If you stipulate that payment is required for commercial use, companies will pay. My experience is that commercial companies by and large are honest and quite willing to abide by the terms.
Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by thescribe on Saturday June 18, 2016 @01:23AM (#11927228)
This is a little off-topic but the software sounds interesting, do if you wouldn't mind I'd appreciate a link.
Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:02AM (#11927300)
Send me an email and I'll forward it to him.
Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by raarts on Sunday June 19, 2016 @03:38PM (#11934338)
The software business is the exception to the rule. If you work in IT your future is much brighter than the rest of the generation. This article writes about the bleak future of the overwhelming majority of the twenty-somethings: those who do NOT work in IT.

Also the fact that software/computing is so much a game changer for so many industries has much more to do with the growth rate and wealth generation, than the fact that there is little government regulation. Software grows everywhere, even in communist/socialist countries.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by lossolo on Friday June 17, 2016 @11:48PM (#11927001)
So you are saying that deregulating finance that gave us 2008 crisis was a good thing ? I think there are industries that need to be strictly regulated because they don't work for the good of the whole market if they are deregulated. One of them is finance.
Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by cderwin on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:20AM (#11927092)
2008 didn't happen because of a lack of regulation, it happened because of absolutely awful regulation. You don't need more regulation, you need smarter regulation. It is absolutely absurd that the federal government subsidized loans to (insolvent) poor people that they can't pay back -- resulting in subprime the mortgages that caused the crisis. Now, in no way am I saying banks had no hand in it; that's just untrue. But it certainly was not the one-sided affair leftist revisionists wish it were.
Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by 0xcde4c3db on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:55AM (#11927175)
Last time I read up on this, I was led to believe that the regulations were only a minor factor, and the main thing driving the subprime explosion was demand in the investment market for misleadingly-rated mortgage-backed securities.

My understanding of the details is almost nonexistent, but I gather that there was some kind of statistical wizardry that let lenders load up a bunch of crappy mortgages into a package that was, in aggregate, supposedly an extremely safe investment with a very attractive return. These securities became the primary product, with the mortgages themselves being the raw material. The market demanded that production increase, so the lenders did the finance equivalent of drilling for tar sands oil. At this point there was no need for the government to mandate subprime mortgages. Lenders weren't just grudgingly implementing policy, they were enthusiastic, shouting from the rooftops for people to apply for mortgages even if they thought they wouldn't qualify. I clearly remember Countrywide's motto: "No one can do what Countrywide can". I guess it turned out that Countrywide couldn't do it either.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by Chathamization on Saturday June 18, 2016 @01:03AM (#11927189)
> does anyone think that could be made better with socialism?

Wasn't it already made better with socialism? Do you not believe that things like ARPANET significantly contributed to the successes we have today?

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @01:20AM (#11927220)
No, I don't. I was into computers in the 70's. The first thing anyone did with two computers was figure out a way to connect them together. A smorgasbord of technologies emerged - Fidonet, BIX, CompuServe, Prodigy, MCImail, RBBS, etc. Heck, even I invented one (it wasn't very good, although I did call it "web" (!)). The notion that the internet would not exist without the Arpanet protocol is pedantically true, but we'd have something else just like it but with a different protocol.

It's like saying if engineers had wheels and engines laying around everywhere, nobody would have thought of connecting them together and making a car without a government grant. (I can tell you for a fact that the first thing any engineer does with an engine and wheels is find a way to put them together!)

The Arpanet also kinda went nowhere until the restrictions on commercial use of it were lifted.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by Chathamization on Saturday June 18, 2016 @01:38AM (#11927255)
> It's like saying if engineers had wheels and engines laying around everywhere, nobody would have thought of connecting them together and making a car without a government grant.

But they didn't. I mean, if government projects lag behind private sector projects, why didn't we have ARPANET going nowhere while some private sector project jumped ahead? Even if you think we would have gotten their eventually (debatable), we can at the very least say that the government project got us there sooner.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by WalterBright on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:07AM (#11927310)
As I said, the first thought anyone with two computers had was connecting them together. It's not a big step from that to inventing yet another protocol, which happened all the time. There wasn't anything miraculous about it.

Local networks run on the Ethernet protocol, developed by Xerox, and shows that an excellent network protocol does not require a government grant. And without Ethernet, there would have been Token Ring by IBM, or Token Bus by GM.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by jhanschoo on Saturday June 18, 2016 @07:43AM (#11928086)
> On the other hand, the industries with the most government intervention seem to be doing the worst - finance, health care, higher education.

I find this a very parochial, US-centered statement. Many countries have these industries in greater regulation, and fare well in them. The conclusion I draw from the situation in the US is that its political structure, existing political-industrial relationships and the interests of its politicians are co-responsible for dysfunction in these industries, and not the general idea of government intervention.

As for why we don't see equal innovation outside of the US, I think the availability of human capital adequately explains it.

Re:Why Young Americans Are Giving Up on Capitalism by x5n1 on Saturday June 18, 2016 @12:14AM (#11927077)
I like this critique of Capitalism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Dimensional_Man

Yes it's nice having cheap super cool toys. It's nicer having less work and being treated well. But when a social economy interacts with human behavior it usually does not work out that way. But the above, having less work and having more free time, however you do it, is a worth goal for the economy. However you make it happen. Toys are not all that they are made out to be especially when you have no time to play with them.

That's all Capitalism I think is doing for us these days. Most methods of producing necessary things are so well understood and so efficient you can run them off machines for the most part. Capitalism is producing really cool toys for everyone. Yay!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_materialism

"Studies in the United States have found that an increase in material wealth and goods in the country has had little to no effect on the well-being and happiness of its citizens."

What people need are experiences and those experiences are all about having the time to experience them.

"Instead, research shows that purchases made with the intention of acquiring life experiences such as going on a family vacation make people happier than purchases made to acquire material possessions such as a car. Even just thinking about experiential purchases makes people happier than thinking about material ones"

It's sort of sick that this idea that you need free time has been turned into the above analysis about purchasing experiences.