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Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by forgotpwtomain on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:34AM (#11854374)
I don't see why you think that one shouldn't be able to shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, and be prosecuted accordingly for inciting a riot and damage to the property if such were the case (but not for the speech itself).

The problem with your position, is since we aren't dealing with 'what did happen' but with 'what could have happened' it becomes an ambiguous and potentially abusive provision - highly subjective to personal biases.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by stinkytaco on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:49AM (#11854458)
But it is a position that we apply all the time in a complex society. We have speed limits which we enforce because higher speeds could lead to an accident. We have building codes because shoddy construction practices could lead to a fire. We have vaccination requirements because a lack of them could lead to an outbreak.

These are all laws meant to protect us from each other. I suppose you could argue with any of these on principle, but it's a pretty standard part of our social contract now.

I would personally argue that the society we live in has reached a level where we are incapable of being fully informed about all the risks, requirements and possibilities. We have to own cars to buy groceries, go to work and raise our kids because neighborhood grocery stores and schools are no more. We can't all be expected to be experts on HVAC and electrical because we've spent the totality of our existence in highly specialized training for whatever it is we do. We live in an incredibly close quarters society, and history has shown us that vaccinations are almost a must.

Making laws based on what could happen just seems like common sense given these realities.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by forgotpwtomain on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @09:59AM (#11854523)
> But it is a bias that we apply all the time in a complex society. We have speed limits which we enforce because higher speeds could lead to an accident.

Yes - but we also don't have an amendment which says:

"Congress shall make no law abridging my right to drive fast"

Preservation of free-speech is specially important in a way that the speed-limit on the highway is not. So I would say these aren't analogous applications of bias.

> I would personally argue that the society we live in has reached a level where we are incapable of being fully informed about all the risks, requirements and possibilities. We have to own cars to buy groceries, go to work and raise our kids because neighborhood grocery stores and schools are no more. We can't all be expected to be experts on HVAC and electrical because we've spent the totality of our existence in highly specialized training for whatever it is we do. We live in an incredibly close quarters society, and history has shown us that vaccinations are almost a must. Making laws based on what could happen just seems like common sense given these realities.

You could also go further e.g. "I would personally argue that the society we live in has reached a level where we are incapable of being fully informed about all the risks, requirements and possibilities. Anti-vaccination speech should be outlawed, the practicants of such speech are a menace to public health, their children and others children."

Putting speech into the category of acceptable bias without effect, is a dangerous path..

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by stinkytaco on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @10:15AM (#11854646)
That's a fair enough point, but I think most would agree that the constitution doesn't always keep up with the times. This leads to our constant interpretation and reinvention of it (see the conflicting decisions of Plessy v. Ferguson and Brown v. Board of Education). I don't think it's perfect, but I would also argue that it's not dangerous, in fact it's necessary.

Indeed, laws like trademark and truth in advertising are exactly what you are suggesting could happen. They are laws that protect consumers from potential harm created by false claims. It's not a limitation on political speech, but fact. I don't think anti-vaccination speech being illegal is actually too terribly unreasonable. I guess in my day to day existence I would rather live in a culture where I'm generally protected from potential harms so I can go about my day with less worry. Could those limitations reach a point where I find them unreasonable? Surely they have and surely it has happened in the history of the United States, but I think it's a testament to the culture and its institutions that we've rebalanced when we've gone too far one direction.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:43PM (#11857185)
> I don't think anti-vaccination speech being illegal is actually too terribly unreasonable.

That would let you ban publication of a rigorous, well-done study that found actual harm from some vaccinations. That is not a good path to be on.

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by stinkytaco on Tuesday June 07, 2016 @03:57PM (#11857305)
Perhaps I didn't phrase it well. I should say "unsubstantiated and speculative anti-vaccination speech". If you've got a study that is generally accepted by the medical community, that's one thing. Going on Oprah or taking out ads in magazines is another entirely.
Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by Sacho on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:32PM (#11863459)
> If you've got a study that is generally accepted by the medical community

If you want to get unsubstantiated and speculative anti-vaccination speech outlawed, you need to convince a majority of people to do it. In such a case, it seems likely that the medical community would also contain a majority convinced of the worthlessness of anti-vaccination speech, thus relying on them to substantiate it would be pointless.

In general, what you're describing is tyranny of the majority that a constitution is meant to prevent. Even if we had the omniscience to determine that vaccinations are now perfectly safe and give brilliant results, outlawing speech against them makes them a protected category, which is ripe for abuse. The argument will shift from pro/anti vaccination to "this is not a real vaccination", subverting whatever your intention of outlawing the speech was. Meanwhile, the things billed under 'vaccination' will slowly morph as time advances, as people fight to classify more and more medicine under it, to protect their drugs from criticism.

This is exactly the thing that happens already under every exception to the First Amendment in the US, and why courts would repeatedly narrow down each exception, refusing to expand it further. Are you prepared to add this to the list of things to be eternally vigilant about? How confident are you that the courts will continue to defend narrow limitations when given an ever-growing list of them? Most importantly, do you think your new law will have any useful effect, given that people are notoriously good at subverting narrowly-crafted censorship, and broad censorship always has unintentional side-effects?

Re:Freedom of speech is in retreat by stinkytaco on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @06:17PM (#11866130)
Fairly confident, if only because we already do it, and don't seem to suffer for it. I want to emphasize that I'm not advocating the suppression of research, but of demonstrably false and harmful claims. That is something that exists and is a fairly narrow test. Arguing for healthy people to not receive vaccines definitely falls into this category. It not only harms the people who don't get them it harms the rest of us as well.

In fact, I would say the expectation exists that the government will do that. We have come to take for granted that the products we buy are safe and the claims we see are true, precisely because we accept that it's reasonable to expect speech to be limited in this way.

Regardless, I don't want to lose the thread. Anti-vaccination is not a commercial enterprise, no one is making false claims and selling them (well, some people are, but not as a product). The example was fair, and I can acknowledge that I may be wrong on that.

But I stand by that we can, and should, be allowed to limit speech to prevent harm, just like we limit all sorts of other things for the same reason, including things that are constitutionally protected.