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Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by pinewurst on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @04:37PM (#11817947)
While I strongly agree with bcantrill, I have to disagree with your HPC origins model in the most strenuous fashion.

The HPC world can be thought of as an alternative universe, one where dinosaurs came to some sort of lazy sentience instead us mammals. HPC RAS (reliability, availability, serviceability) requirements and demands are profoundly different and profoundly lower from what enterprise or even SMB (small & medium sized businesses) would find acceptable. There are or were interesting ideas in GPFS but that was long ago, far away, and sterile besides - not that it stops IBM squeezing revenue from locked-in customers.

Some people in HPC do realize their insular state, but mostly there are hopes for things to be done better that were done better earlier (e.g. "declustered RAID") in the "real" world. Their ongoing hype is for yet-another-meta-filesystem built with feet of straw upon a pile of manure.

The likes of Google infrastructure, are built instead on academic storage R&D, which has been a great source of ideas and interesting test implementations - log structured file systems, distributed hash tables, etc. There is some small overlap, for example in the work of Garth Gibson, but it's not a joint evolution at all.

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by nickpsecurity on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @05:03PM (#11818139)
HPC as an alternative universe is a fine metaphor. Yet, I don't see how there's no comparison given HPC already had more RAS than I could get out of any Linux box for years. IBM SP2, SGI, and some Beowulf-style clusters had high-performance I/O, single-system image, distributed filesystems, and fault-tolerance where you wanted. That sounds a lot like what cloud market aimed for. On top of it, you had grid and metacomputing groups that spread it out across multiple sites with ease of use for developers.

They developed in parallel and separately but there's lots of similarities. Many startups in HPC were taking HPC stuff to meet cloud-style requirements for years in terms of management, reliability, and performance. That it wasn't up to the standards of businesses is countered by how many bought those NUMA machines and clusters for mission-critical apps. A huge chunk of work in Windows and Linux in 90's and early 2000's went to trying to match their metrics in order to replace them on the cheap with x86 servers and Ethernet. So, yes, HPC was making stuff to meet tough, business needs that commercial servers and regular stacks couldn't compare to. That's despite number-crunching supercomputers being their main market.

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by pinewurst on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @05:08PM (#11818168)
Maybe things have fallen back drastically then or we're using different definitions of HPC (it's the likes of weather or bombs for me).

Supercomputer system MTBF numbers aren't high at all. Supercomputer storage is fault tolerant only by fortuitous accident and often requires week-long outages with destroyed data for software upgrades. These systems are built with the likes of dubious metafilesystems (I'm talking to you, Lustre) sitting on top of shaky file systems on top of junk-bin HW RAID systems almost guaranteed to corrupt your data over time.

I think your overall statement is valuable with the global search/replace of "enterprise" for "HPC" - airline reservations or credit card processing. That's all I'm saying - HPC people (at least currently) are massively overrated as developers and as admins. Maybe it's all just a plan to extract energy from Seymour Cray's pulsar-like rotating remains?

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by nickpsecurity on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @05:26PM (#11818315)
" Supercomputer storage is fault tolerant only by fortuitous accident and often requires week-long outages with destroyed data for software upgrades."

Have you tried Ceph or Sector/Sphere? Lustre is known to be crap while Ceph gets a lot of praise and Sector/Sphere has potential for reliability with good performance. I think you may just be stuck with tools that suck. I'll admit it was about 10+ years ago when I was knowledgeable of this area. It could've all gone downhill since.

"That's all I'm saying - HPC people (at least currently) are massively overrated as developers and as admins. "

I'll agree with that. It's one of reasons field built so much tooling to make up for it. ;)

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by notacoward on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:57PM (#11819591)
What does "potential for reliability" even mean? Even Lustre, which you malign and I have maligned even more, has potential for reliability if they just fix a few hundred egregious design flaws.
Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by nickpsecurity on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:22PM (#11819688)
I haven't had a chance to run it. I also don't have clear data on it's userbase. I just know it's been used in supercomputing centers for a while doing large jobs fast over fast WAN's. So, potentially reliable if I see more users telling me it is in various situations.
Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by drauh on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @07:18PM (#11819098)
Re CEPH vs Lustre: what's performance like? I've seen anecdotes quoting 3 GBps over Infiniband for Lustre.

(I'm curious because I run an HPC installation with Lustre and NFS over XFS, and trying to think of the future. MBTF doesn't matter as much as raw speed while it actually runs.)

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by pinewurst on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:53PM (#11819576)
At this point, this is really an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Lustre, as truly awful as it is, is a POSIX filesystem (or close enough for (literally) government work).

Redhat/Ceph only at the end of April, announced that POSIX functionality was ready for production. Personally, that's not when I'd choose to deploy production storage. Ceph object and nominally block have much more time in production.

If you need POSIX, trusting Ceph at this point is an issue unless, as you say, MTBF isn't a concern. You might want to try BeeGFS, a similar logical model but much simpler to implement, performance up to a very high level, and a record of reliable HPC deployments (as oxymoronic as that sounds).

If you can do with object then certainly exorcise Lustre from your environment in favor of Ceph (or try Scality if non-OS isn't an issue). Lustre's only useful as a jobs program anyway - keeping people occupied who'd otherwise be bodging up real software.

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by ymse on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:29PM (#11819951)
A proprietary (and solid) alternative to Lustre would be GPFS, which also has a long track record in HPC (and other markets in which IBM thrives).

As someone who completely shares your Lustre sentiment, I can't fathom why Intel keeps pouring resources into it.

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by pinewurst on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:01PM (#11820078)
GPFS has an amazing number of features, offers high performance and, given a certain fiddliness of configuration and administration, is reliable and performant. It can even sit on top of block storage that itself manages with advanced software RAID and volume management.

The problem (surprise!) is IBM. It's mature software, which means 21st Century Desperate IBM sees it as a cash cow - aggressively squeezing customers - and as something they can let their senior, expensive developers move on from - or lay them off in favor of "rightsourcing". You can certainly trust your data to it (unlike Lustre), but it'll be very expensive, especially on an ongoing basis, and the support team isn't going to know more than you by then. Also expect surprise visits from IBM licensing ninja squads looking for violations of the complex terms, which they will find.

As for Lustre, it brings to mind Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr's, "Three generations of imbeciles are enough". I've been at least peripherally involved with it since 1999, with LLNL trying to strong-arm storage vendors into support. Someone should write a book following 16 years of the tangled Lustre trail from LLNL/CMU/CFS -> Sun -> Oracle -> WhamCloud -> OpenSFS -> ClusterStor -> Xyratex -> Seagate -> Intel (and probably ISIS too).

The answer to your question IHMO, is that Intel just isn't that smart. They're basically a PR firm with a good fab in the basement. What do they know about storage or so many other things? People don't remember when they tried to corner the web serving market back during the 1st Internet boom. They fail a lot, but until now had enough of a cash torrent coming that it didn't matter. They still do, of course, but there are inklings of an ebb.

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by nickpsecurity on Thursday June 02, 2016 @10:24AM (#11822656)
Yeah, yeah, GPFS was one of them that inspired my HPC and cloud comparison. It, combined with management software, got one to about 80-90% of what they needed for cloud filesystems. It was badass back when I read about it being deployed in ASC Purple. I didn't know it turned into some stagnating, fascist crap with IBM. Sad outcome for such great technology.

Typical IBM, though. (shakes head)

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by nickpsecurity on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:56PM (#11819589)
Sounds like good recommendations based on what research I've done in these things. I forgot BeeGFS but it was in my bookmarks. Must be good in some way. ;)
Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by drauh on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:27PM (#11819706)
Cheers!
Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by nickpsecurity on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @07:48PM (#11819278)
Found these for CEPH that indicates there's fast deployments for Infiniband. Don't have more data as I've been out of HPC a while.

https://www.mellanox.com/related-docs/solutions/ppt_ceph_mel...

http://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/JohnKim_CephWithHigh...

Also, look at Sector/Sphere which was made by UDT designer for distributed, parallel workloads for supercomputing. It has significant advantages over Hadoop. It's used with high-performance links to share data between supercomputing centers.

http://sector.sourceforge.net/index.html

http://sector.sourceforge.net/pub/Sector%20vs%20Hadoop%20-%2...

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by ymse on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:01PM (#11819605)
Native RDMA support for Ceph is still a ways off. The current implementation requires disabling Cephx authentication, which is a no-go in any environment where you can't completely trust every client (e.g. "cloud", where most current deployments/users live). It also hasn't seen much development since the initial proof-of-concept (still highly experimental).

That said, IPoIB should work just fine, and the main bottleneck currently is (Ethernet) latency. I'm running a couple of 1,6PB clusters (432 * 4TB) and can only get 20-60MBps on a single client with a 4kB block size, but got bored of benchmarking after saturating 5 concurrent 10Gb clients with a 4MB block size.

I do expect the RDMA situation to improve substantially over the next year or so, even if authentication will still be unsupported. The latter generally isn't a problem in HPC where stuff like GPFS lives (where you also have to trust every client). And they clearly want that market now that CephFS is finally deemed production ready.

Re:Torus: A distributed storage system by CoreOS by wazoox on Thursday June 02, 2016 @07:39AM (#11821717)
In the HPC crowd, I'm quite familiar with OrangeFS (aka PVFS2) which recently entered the standard kernel. I had a PVFS 2.7 cluster running for many years, 24/7 with decent reliability (it crashed a few times, but never lost data).

It works with RDMA, has a POSIX layer, and is roughly equivalent to Lustre in performance in my tests, but 1° is very easy to setup (compared to Lustre) 2° has NFS actually working.