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Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by aetherson on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @03:17PM (#11809291)
Sure, but, like, changing the fundamental cost structure of our health care system seems like a pretty big add to the already absurdly big policy change of a basic income.

(Which is not to say that I disagree with you, though I do think that there are actually three different cost categories of health care:

1. Routine/preventative/minor care. Probably best dealt with as out-of-pocket costs.

2. One-time catastrophes, like "I broke my arm" or "I got pneumonia." Probably best dealt with as insurance.

3. Long-term or lifelong large expenses, like "I have HIV" or "I have MS." Probably best dealt with as a government program.

But then you'll have a lot of problems with the boundary cases.)

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by bryondowd on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @03:41PM (#11809533)
Just want to point out that making routine/preventative care an out-of-pocket cost is probably one of the worst things you can do. I expect there's a reason many companies emphasize and encourage their employees take advantage of 100% free preventive care under their insurance plans. You can save a ton of money later by catching and treating issues early, and even a small personal cost can encourage people to ignore warning signs and not seek aid until the problem has become severe and expensive.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by aetherson on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @04:08PM (#11809772)
Yeah, this is deeply off-topic, but my reading of the evidence is that preventative or diagnostic care is typically not cost-effective or even outcome-enhancing, with a few specific exceptions like vaccinations.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by schmozz on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @05:35PM (#11810463)
I have heard this as well, but I think the point still stands. Things like annual physical's might not be a net positive, but you don't want to deter people from going to the doctor when they think something could be wrong.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by bryondowd on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @04:53PM (#11810138)
Interesting. I'd love to see support for this view. Everything I've heard suggests the opposite. Especially if you consider worker productivity in addition to healthcare costs.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by aetherson on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @05:35PM (#11810464)
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0708558

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-preventive-economics-idUSB...

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-003-x/2015012/article/14295-...

http://www.thehoopsnews.com/effectiveness-of-mammograms-vast...

It's a complex subject, and a few articles aren't the final word one way or the other. My opinion is based on various things I've read over the past couple of decades (most of which I can't summon up right now) and conversations with various medical professionals in my family and social circle, and my overall worldview (as anyone's must be).

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by bryondowd on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:00AM (#11814820)
Ok, this is interesting. Some of this fits my intuitions, and some was a surprise to me, so yes, this does modify my view, but only slightly.

It seems there are preventative measures that are cost effective, and there are others that are not. So really, this indicates a need to determine a threshold. Perhaps we determine that we can afford to pay up to $50,000 per QALY, and cover any care that falls within that limit. So, we'd have coverage based on its efficiency rather than whether it is considered preventative or treatment or maintenance. The idea being to get the maximum amount of healthy years of life out of whatever amount of money we as society are willing to put toward healthcare. This could also be extended to programs outside of direct care, like some of those articles suggest, which encourage and support healthy activity in a way that still falls within the $/QALY target.

Of course, I expect it would be a bear to fairly study every possible treatment and program to determine its efficiency, especially factoring in a changing environment which is bound to change the efficiency of any given treatment from year to year.

Still, at a minimum, we should be grabbing those low-hanging fruits, where we can gain healthy years for a very low cost.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by samscully on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @05:35PM (#11810465)
It does not exactly answer your question but this study [1] had some relevant results.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAND_Health_Insurance_Experime...

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by frostymarvelous on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @04:33AM (#11812881)
I'm going to say this because I'm in a similar situation now. For weeks, I've been having pains in my chest, back and sides. I know for sure something is wrong. And I fear I may be dying.

But being unsure where my next meal will come from, I can't even visit a clinic to get a test done.

I keep praying to get some money so I can go check myself before I leave my young family without a caregiver.

So yes, whatever you guys argue here today. Make sure people like me in future can be cared for. And that they don't have to worry about food, shelter, Healthcare.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by andruby on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:08AM (#11813695)
Go visit a clinic. You obviously have the time to write this comment on HN on a computer, so you have the time to go to a clinic.

Like you said, you absolutely don't want to leave your family without a caregiver.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by frostymarvelous on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:39AM (#11814221)
I wrote it on my phone. And it's not about time. It's about being able to afford the care.

When you live in Africa, you have different problems.

Either way, I was buttressing this point

> even a small personal cost can encourage people to ignore warning signs and not seek aid until the problem has become severe and expensive

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by mattlutze on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @03:55AM (#11812739)
However, that small personal costs may very well help not fill up a queue to the doctor for mundane, trivial crap that would have gone away in a day or two. Care quality is improved when the doctors are less stressed and can spend more time with their patients.

Free-as-in-beer health care ensure more people going to the doctor for more crap, reducing availability and quality for the average person.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by Mz on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @04:57PM (#11810178)
I expect there's a reason many companies emphasize and encourage their employees take advantage of 100% free preventive care under their insurance plans.

Yeah, it is called brainwashing. I worked in insurance and was all tickled to see them offering "wellness" benefits. I was all "Oh, yay, the world is turning into a better and more clued place!" Then I went to the meetings. These were purely a sales gimmick. That's it.

You encourage people to go to their annual check up and they feel like you actually care. It breeds employee loyalty. It mostly does very little for actual health outcomes. If you actually want better health, you are better off promoting exercise, healthy eating, sanitation, etc. in place of preventive medical screenings.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by odbol_ on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @06:01PM (#11810637)
Theoretically, that's what your doctor is supposed to do at these "preventative checkups": convince you to exercise, diet, etc.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by danielweber on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @06:40PM (#11810834)
Since we don't see any benefits from annual check-up, that either isn't happening or is ineffective.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by wutbrodo on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @07:26PM (#11811074)
> 1. Routine/preventative/minor care. Probably best dealt with as out-of-pocket costs.

This is a pretty terrible idea. Even programs in the current day that are trying to make consumers feel their healthcare costs (like HSAs and their required high-deductible PPO plans) often or always cover preventative care at 100%.

Preventative care is precisely the kind of care that people are most likely to skip to save on some money, and at the system-level this just means much more costly healthcare. Regardless of how you structure your healthcare system, increasing the cost of the actual care itself is a horrible idea.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @03:28PM (#11809399)
> Sure, but, like, changing the fundamental cost structure of our health care system seems like a pretty big add to the already absurdly big policy change of a basic income.

We already have a national individual mandate for health insurance with specific coverage rules which has made decisions about this; essentially, a mature BI would cover expected out-of-pocket costs plus insurance premiums in that system.

(That's not to say further reform of that system isn't possible or desirable, with or without BI, just that, given the existing system, there seems to be a fairly natural way that healthcare within that system fits into BI.)

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by aetherson on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @03:33PM (#11809453)
Sorry, I misunderstood your previous comment to mean that you thought we should go to an India-like "out of pocket" system plus (optional) health insurance to handle catastrophic costs. Rereading, your intent is clear.

(Not sure why I jumped to that conclusion, except that perhaps a basic income system appeals to the same economic minimalism that an out-of-pocket health cost system does.)

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by stordoff on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @08:43PM (#11811379)
> Routine/preventative/minor care. Probably best dealt with as out-of-pocket costs.

This seems like a terrible idea. If someone, for example, notices a new mole, they are much less likely to get it checked out if it is an out-of-pocket expense. Obviously, most of the time it'll be fine, but it could also be skin cancer that was easily treatable but has now metastasised and will be hugely expensive to treat.