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Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by azernik on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @01:25PM (#11808154)
Depends which BI fans you ask. The ones who want to completely eliminate other welfare programs are generally right-wing and/or libertarian - they're opposed to existing welfare programs for all kinds of ideological reasons. Left-wing BI fans (like me) are not so gung-ho about eliminating other welfare systems for the reasons you described, and I at least am totally willing to accept that BI will cost money.

That said, I do think there are some welfare items that can be eliminated, namely those that provide an income guarantee rather than a safety net against catastrophic expenses. So for example, section 8 and food stamps might be phased out under a BI system (they're always going to get next month's or week's deposit), but I think government-subsidized healthcare should not be.

WRT things like the car breakdown case you described... I think that's a gray area? With a few very big exceptions (people with disabilities or living in rural areas) the lack of a car is mainly a catastrophic issue because it endangers jobs. If the person has a basic living standard guaranteed, the urgency goes down, and I think you can just say "tough shit, save up until you can afford the repair". But I do think that there has to be a social safety net for people for whom a greater variety of big-ticket outlays are essential.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by xienze on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @01:31PM (#11808240)
> So for example, section 8 and food stamps might be phased out under a BI system (they're always going to get next month's or week's deposit)

But my point is, when you hand someone a check and they must in turn be responsible for spending that money on food and shelter, they might not actually do that and then what? At least with Section 8 and food stamps you're earmarking the money for a particular purpose so as to make it much harder for the money to not be used the way it was intended.

> WRT things like the car breakdown case you described...

Keep in mind "my car broke down" is a metaphor for any unexpected event that impacts someone financially (and commonly as an excuse for "I spent my money foolishly and now I'm broke"), so I didn't mean for that to be some single concrete case I wanted a specific answer for. But again, if we decide that we need to help someone on BI who had some particular financial hardship beyond what their check allows for, how do we police that?

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by bryondowd on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @03:56PM (#11809648)
To be fair, if the disbursements are frequent enough, you don't need to worry about food. It takes quite a while to actually starve, and a hungry enough person will buy food.

Shelter is another story, but as long as you provide a means to assign some of your BI ahead of time to a provider (landlord), this should also be a minor issue outside of the very mentally ill, who are going to be screwed in any system (including the current one) that doesn't take them under involuntary managed care.

When I say assigning your BI, I mean being able to go through a process on the spot that guarantees a landlord $x over y weeks from your BI in exchange for y weeks of tenancy, possibly with additional penalty fees the landlord can claim for any damage to the property. Essentially, a lease without the need for a security deposit or credit check. I'm certain you'd have quite a few places willing to take in renters with guaranteed rent coming in at regular intervals.

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by azernik on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @01:38PM (#11808315)
If someone has that much difficulty managing money, I think social services need to get involved and take some control over the person's decisions away from them. I just don't think that should be the default.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by st3v3r on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @03:18PM (#11809295)
Keep in mind that, under many current programs, you are not allowed to have savings. If you do not use all of your welfare money, then you get your benefits cut. If you have too much in your savings account, then you get your benefits cut. So it's not so simple as to say they have difficulty managing money, it's that they are not allowed to do many of the things you'd associate with successful money managing.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by azernik on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @05:12PM (#11810288)
Under many current basic income programs, or just under other welfare programs? My impression of basic income schemes is that they are universal - they don't care if you're a millionaire, you still get your $30K per year.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by st3v3r on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @06:38PM (#11810832)
Sorry, welfare programs.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by azernik on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @06:47PM (#11810880)
Yeah. My attribution of these issues to saving skills only applies in a UBI context, iff the scheme doesn't force people into particular spending patterns as some current welfare systems do.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by imtringued on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @07:47AM (#11813612)
If that's the case how do they expect anyone to get out of poverty?