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Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by themartorana on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @09:00AM (#11806258)
Really wish this was illegal or SSL didn't have such a gaping vulnerability.
Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by mikegerwitz on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @09:04AM (#11806274)
There is no gaping vulnerability.

The user will be presented with a certificate error (or denied outright, depending on the browser). If the user decides to add an exception, only then will a handshake succeed and the MITM be possible (in this particular scenario).

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by developer2 on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @12:07PM (#11807355)
If one doesn't understand exactly how TLS works, this is the usual question regarding MITM. If there is "end-to-end encryption", just how exactly is it even possible to do MITM? In an ideal world, it just wouldn't be possible.

With the existing system, certificate "errors" that are really just "warnings" should not be allowed to be bypassed. The fact that certificate errors can be ignored is something that should never have been allowed to take place. Unfortunately with the historical fact that legit certificates were inexcusably expensive to obtain for internal/test projects meant that self-signed certificates became commonplace.

We're waiting for a genius to come up with a new strategy for encryption that doesn't rely on trust being determined by a third party entity (ie: certificate authorities). Letsencrypt is nice and all, but it's still just a free workaround for a system nobody really wants. "It's not possible to do it any other way" is just pseudo-speak for "nobody has invented a better way yet".

Why the strategy for encryption has relied on public/private keys for so long with no real alternative strikes me as odd. After 30+ years, nobody has thought of something else?

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by schoen on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @12:49PM (#11807706)
If sites use HSTS, browsers won't allow users to bypass the errors. See section 12.1 of RFC 6797:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#section-12.1

So you can encourage people to use HSTS and then get part of that behavior at least for individual sites.

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by developer2 on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @04:41PM (#11810042)
The HSTS preload list (referring primarily to Chrome's, which is also included by other vendors) in particular is something I find really strange. The current domain owner adds the domain to the HSTS preload list. That domain then expires or is released by that owner, without them requesting its removal from the preload list. Then someone else buys the domain without having planned to use SSL/TLS.

The result? Weeks, even months, of not being able to use the domain without encryption, all because someone else previously had the domain added to the HSTS preload list. Removal from the preload list is by request only; there is no automation in place to detect the lack of an HSTS header to mean that the domain is no longer to be considered a participant. Even worse, the request to be removed can take an indeterminate amount of time to be disseminated to end users of the browser. The preload list is not pushed to clients via something like a daily digest; the list is hardcoded into releases of the browser. This means it can take an absurd length of time to see a domain removed from the list, as it depends on every individual user updating the browser to the latest version, and only once the vendor even gets around to updating the hardcoded list in a given release to include your domain's removal.

How such a mechanism was ever acceptable is beyond me. Domain ownership is technically fluid, and yet the implementation was designed in such a way as to assume that domain ownership never changes.

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by nitrogen on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @05:13PM (#11810297)
How such a mechanism was ever acceptable is beyond me.

They probably wanted to encourage the new owner to use TLS as well.

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by developer2 on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @08:02PM (#11811235)
That makes little sense. Far more likely they just didn't take into account the fact that not every domain is a long-term "google.com" owned by a single entity for its lifetime.
Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by teraflop on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @04:10PM (#11809784)
> "It's not possible to do it any other way" is just pseudo-speak for "nobody has invented a better way yet". ... After 30+ years, nobody has thought of something else?

Not really, I think you've hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of pie-in-the-sky proposals that start from an axiom like "we should replace the centralized CAs with a distributed, decentralized system", but so far I haven't heard of anything that is robust enough to credibly improve on the current architecture.

Off the top of my head, the closest things I can think of to what you're asking for are:

- Namecoin (depends on the Bitcoin blockchain, with everything that implies e.g. huge computational overhead, tight coupling to the volatile Bitcoin economy, and potential attacks from mining cartels etc.)

- The PGP web-of-trust (places additional burden on users who have to decide whether many different intermediaries are "trustworthy"; totally impractical for John Q. Public, in my opinion)

- CACert.org (still relies on a centrally trusted certificate issuer, but crowdsources the identity validation stuff)

If you have better ideas, let's hear them!

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by zeveb on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @10:22AM (#11806660)
Unless of course the WiFi operator is using a MITM certificate issued by a 'legitimate' CA.

When you use XPKI, you are trusting every single CA in the world to certify every single site in the world.

A sane PKI would limit what CAs are permitted to certify (e.g. TÜRKTRUST might be permitted to certify *.tr, but nothing else — not foo.br, bar.gov or baz.co.uk). But XPKI is neither a sane nor a secure PKI.

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by pfg on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @10:35AM (#11806733)
If a publicly-trusted CA would issue MitM certificates for WiFi operators (specifically for domains that the WiFi operator doesn't own), they'd be out of business in a heartbeat. That would be a severe violation of Baseline Requirements and various root program policies, and no browser vendor would continue trusting such a CA. Both HPKP and other pinning technologies included in e.g. Chrome would make this easily detectable.

This scenario might be plausible for targeted attacks by nation states, but not for something as simple as public WiFi.

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by throwaway7767 on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @11:29AM (#11807093)
> If a publicly-trusted CA would issue MitM certificates for WiFi operators (specifically for domains that the WiFi operator doesn't own), they'd be out of business in a heartbeat.

The fact that Trustwave still has their CA certificate proves you wrong. They provided a sub-CA to one of their customers for the purpose of MITM. They got a slap on the wrist, gave a promist that they'd never do it again, and that was it. Your browser still trusts this company that has demonstrated that they are perfectly willing to compromise the safety of the whole CA system for a sale.

It wasn't WiFi, but that's not really a relevant detail here. Selling certs for the purpose of MITM is.

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by pfg on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @12:40PM (#11807614)
This happened in 2012 and caused a number of changes to various root programs[1]. Mozilla, for example, is now forcing CAs to disclose any subCAs they sign. This is also from a time when the Baseline Requirements in its current form were not yet part of e.g. Mozilla's root policy (that only happened later in 2012). It also predates HPKP (and possibly the pinning mechanism Chrome used before that for their own domains, I'm not sure of the timeline). A lot has changed since that incident, and I have no doubt that the reaction to something like this would be different today, especially if a CA does this knowingly.

[1]: https://wiki.mozilla.org/CA:Communications#February_17.2C_20...

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by mtgx on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @11:05AM (#11806915)
Ok, so you think BlueCoat will be out of business because of this? Surveillance and censorship is BlueCoat's business, and now they're a CA.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11781915

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by pfg on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @12:48PM (#11807694)
The question here isn't whether BlueCoat would go out of business, but rather Symantec. I don't like Symantec, nor do I like BlueCoat. That being said, we have no evidence that this certificate was used for misissuance. Symantec claims that BlueCoat never had access to the private key. The certificate was disclosed to Mozilla's root program. I have no idea why Symantec would agree to sign a certificate for an organization like BlueCoat - the PR damage has to be devastating. It would make even less sense for them to sign such a certificate to allow BlueCoat to use it with their MitM devices, because something like that is more or less guaranteed to be detected sooner or later, with HPKP and other pinning technologies. They would essentially kill their CA business, and I doubt any amount of money BlueCoat would be willing to pay would cover their entire CA business profits.
Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by NotreDev on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @09:18AM (#11806328)
Not what you were replying to, but SSL does provide for MITM outside of the options offered in your response. I.e. https://mitmproxy.org
Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by corndoge on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @10:01AM (#11806532)
As a user of mitmproxy, I assure you it is not achieving MITM by exploiting any weakness of SSL. mitmproxy requires its certificate to be trusted by the target (i.e. installed in the root store) to silently intercept SSL'd traffic. Invalid certificate warnings will display otherwise. This is fully conformant to SSL's threat model.
Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by kecks on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @09:38AM (#11806415)
No?

The link you posted is indeed a MITM proxy for SSL, but it will generate certificate errors, as my grandparent said. Users will know the MITM attack is going on (unless the website doesn't use HSTS and the attacker has stolen/bought a signing key from a CA registered in your device's trust store).

Re:Tor Browser 6.0 is released by bluewizard on Tuesday May 31, 2016 @09:18AM (#11806326)
The correct thing to do in this case (if you are worried about security) is to allow the MITM SSL handshake and use a secure VPN for your Internet access. Third parties with the certificate keys would only be able to see encrypted traffic between you and the VPN provider.