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Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by lars on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:02AM (#11784556)
More than that, what it installs fits any classical description of malware. Windows 10 comes with an OS wide key logger, that logs what you write in any application, and sends it to Microsoft.

(This usually evokes disbelief. If you think I'm wrong, please consider what you would do if it turned out I was right. Then, if you're on Windows 10, lookup your "speech, inking & typing" settings. This is where they ask permission to do this. It is turned on by default.)

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by teacup50 on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:06AM (#11784572)
No joke:

"We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions."

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by Already__Taken on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:08AM (#11784584)
Doesn't every phone do this to make the swipe style keyboard work and autocorrect?
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by cm3 on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:58AM (#11784749)
While it's the same problem on phones and you can disable stuff there, it's less of an issue because creation (media, software) happens on a PC and that's a lot more critical. Also, on phones Apple or Google doesn't sneak in an update which re-enables the previously disabled data collection settings. Microsoft went so far to rename NT services to thwart disabling. If Microsoft doesn't fix this soon, they'll either get a lawsuit or lose serious market share.

It's a pity because the kernel and surrounding subsystems are getting better with each Windows release.

Maybe something like nLite can be used to create a Windows image that doesn't contain the nasty stuff, but then an update would reinstall them

The icing on the cake is that even when using Windows Enterprise edition in a Windows Domain, you cannot control what updates are installed as you could before. This is a huge problem because stuff you don't want will be slipped back in.

They just lost their mind.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by wingerlang on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:23AM (#11784635)
Yes, they do. Maybe not sending it to some server though.
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by mattmanser on Friday May 27, 2016 @04:59AM (#11784752)
Maybe not sending it to some server though

Those 8 words change are what we're talking about. A keyboard app obviously needs to use your data to improve auto-correct.

When it starts sending that data off-device, however, that's a whole different ballgame.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by bad_user on Friday May 27, 2016 @05:49AM (#11784918)
> A keyboard app obviously needs to use your data to improve auto-correct.

No, that's not obvious, in fact that would be the opposite of what a keyboard's auto-correct should do. Because the whole point of having auto-correct is for the keyboard to correct my mistakes, not learn from them or from the mistakes of other people that also don't know how to spell.

For this reason for example Swype on iOS has been basically unusable for me, because it makes more mistakes than I do. And no matter the implementation, now every time I choose to override the auto-correct decision for a certain word, I always end up pausing because I fear that from then on, the word will be added so some personal dictionary that I don't want. Basically learning from what the individual types is a disservice to the individual.

Also, on iOS custom keywords need explicit permission for accessing the Internet. And on Android I found no mention anywhere that Google's Keyboard sends telemetry to its parent. People just assume that for some reason.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by Nullabillity on Friday May 27, 2016 @06:44AM (#11785088)
The point of auto-correct is to fix it when you fat-finger something, not when your belief of how to spell something is "wrong". There's a reason auto-correct isn't a thing on desktops.
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by DanBC on Friday May 27, 2016 @06:49AM (#11785104)
They need the data to know whether you meant eg "from" or "form", which they get from context by looking at hundreds of millions of occurrences.
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by wingerlang on Friday May 27, 2016 @05:09AM (#11784791)
They might "obviously need" this data if they want to synchronise the improvements along all your computers and devices.

Or to make the general dictionary pick up on new terms automatically and give them to other windows users.

Edit: The full quote is actually:

> We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions. Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. You can turn the Send Microsoft info about how I write setting on or off in Settings.

Which means they don't send EVERYTHING so it's not really a keylogger (unless you also count the keyboard-helping stuff keyloggers?).

Furthermore on that link, it seems to me that the data they would be sending to their servers is the ones about the other services like speech/handwriting to feed into their system to machine-learn recognition.

And it is all turn-off'able which is a plus.

It seems like most people will assume the worst, I am not saying you're wrong but it doesn't seem like some "malware" thing like other people are saying..

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by cantrevealname on Friday May 27, 2016 @06:48AM (#11785101)
>> some is sent to Microsoft

> Which means they don't send EVERYTHING

In any mathematical or logical context, "some" can be a proper subset of "all" or equal to "all". Any lawyer or judge thinking logically would agree. If the matter had to be confronted in court, Microsoft's legalese covers the case where they capture and store everything.

Another way they can hedge is by not capturing something innocuous and uninteresting, like words you type into Microsoft Help or Group Policy Editor. Now they can say that they don't capture and store every single thing.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by Piskvorrr on Friday May 27, 2016 @06:30AM (#11785046)
Aaaand tends to turn itself back on. "Accidentally." Oops.

(Also, my "malware" comment was about the forced upgrade to WinX, not about WinX itself, as I have even noted in the last sentence.)

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by kuschku on Friday May 27, 2016 @05:06AM (#11784775)
And that’s why you use the AOSP keyboard, not the Google spyware keyboard.
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by vmateixeira on Friday May 27, 2016 @06:23AM (#11785024)
I wonder how does this hold against intellectual property rights... Can they own all the software I may produce on their OS?

It sure seems like they can have an easy access to the source code..

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by dhimes on Friday May 27, 2016 @09:32AM (#11785873)
I'm sure the TOS has you relieve them of liability and hold them harmless for any use they may make of the software that you wrote.
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by quickben on Friday May 27, 2016 @06:19AM (#11785017)
Typed character recognition...

Unbelievable

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by voidz on Friday May 27, 2016 @09:48AM (#11785978)
Makes you wonder if they are really saying profiling in obfuscated terms.
Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by ryanlol on Friday May 27, 2016 @07:50AM (#11785346)
>More than that, what it installs fits any classical description of malware. Windows 10 comes with an OS wide key logger, that logs what you write in any application, and sends it to Microsoft.

I've yet to see any actual technical evidence of this. Quoting their very unspecific legal documents is hardly evidence of anything.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by lars on Friday May 27, 2016 @08:10AM (#11785449)
Go to "speech, inking & typing" settings. The dialog literally says they will collect your typing history.

The traffic is encrypted, and no one has been able to MITM it yet, as far as I know. But Microsoft has confirmed in the press that yes, they do this.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by ryanl0l on Friday May 27, 2016 @08:22AM (#11785502)
>Go to "speech, inking & typing" settings. The dialog literally says they will collect your typing history.

And until someone bothers to do a MITM we really don't know what that means.

>The traffic is encrypted, and no one has been able to MITM it yet, as far as I know. But Microsoft has confirmed in the press that yes, they do this.

Are you sure? Unless they're specifically trying to prevent such you should be able to just drop in your own root certificate and MITM it with the tool of your choice.

Re:Microsoft won't back down from Windows 10 nagware 'trick' by RaleyField on Friday May 27, 2016 @10:04AM (#11786089)
One would hope they got their crypto right (I'd assume it's done via ssl with a pinned cert, but I haven't checked). More worrisome is what they do at their data centers - officially they might paint one picture of how well they have secured their system both technologically from outsiders and from employee insiders but behind this pretty picture could be a total shitshow behind the scenes and we wouldn't know. A rogue employee could socially engineer his way to data and dump it on the internet - similar to what happened to OkCupid. They could be infiltrated by Chinese with their infinite budgets and then you take a "voluntary" trip to China. They could be forced by USG to reveal data, and I'm all for nabbing terrorists, but USG has proven that they aren't any better at securing their stuff so China scenario again applies. Or Microsoft is after a few years pushed into corner even more and become really evil and start monetizing data to everyone with a dollar and it turns out they consulted lawyers to arrive at minimal method of data anonymization that would still be accepted by courts.

In the end, it's customers who have bought their computers and should retain ultimate agency over their hardware and what Microsoft is doing isn't necessarily in their customers' best interest because it puts undue, poorly communicated risks on them. Most users aren't equipped with necessary background knowledge to evaluate these risks so aren't even capable of consciously accepting them.

edit: oh it's you ryan. I'm sure you already know all this. :)