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Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by CWuestefeld on Monday March 08, 2010 @05:00PM (#1176593)
Most of the asshole greed we see today is not in profit per se, but in back-scratching compensation deals for top management.

Citation, please? I'm very skeptical that pay for top execs amounts to a really significant part of corporate expenses, or that corporate profits could be increased substantially by cutting these expenses.

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by dfranke on Monday March 08, 2010 @05:14PM (#1176641)
Ooh, interesting question. First number I was able to grab: Citigroup lost $7.8B in 2009. In 2007, their CEO's $24.8M in compensation from the previous year ($1.2M salary, $13.2M bonus, $10.4M stock grant) was denounced as scandalous.

Edit: slightly more apples-to-apples: their 2007 profit was $3.6B. Their 2006 profit was $21.5B.

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by CWuestefeld on Monday March 08, 2010 @05:22PM (#1176667)
So in 2006 they paid their CEO about 0.1% of their total profit? That doesn't seem like a lot.

But more important, how much does it cost to find someone who can run a company like that competently? I work for a lot cheaper, but I'm also not capable of managing all of Citigroup. And conversely, if I were someone who had proven that I could do that, I'd likely have enough money to retire; you'd have to pay me quite a lot to convince me to subject myself to that kind of stress rather than sipping pina coladas on the beach.

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by jbooth on Monday March 08, 2010 @05:36PM (#1176710)
Well, if we're going to do apples-to-apples, given the recent statements on their ledger, we should ask "How much does it cost to find someone who will run us damn near into the ground and require a government bailout"? :)

Obviously it's more complicated than that, but the "we have to pay for the best and brightest!" meme starts to sound a lot more like self-dealing when it turns out the best and brightest do approximately the same quality job as one of those dipper things that replaced Homer Simpson at the nuclear plant for a week once.

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by pw0ncakes on Monday March 08, 2010 @05:52PM (#1176743)
Obviously it's more complicated than that, but the "we have to pay for the best and brightest!" meme starts to sound a lot more like self-dealing when it turns out the best and brightest do approximately the same quality job as one of those dipper things that replaced Homer Simpson at the nuclear plant for a week once.

Well said. My post above explains why CEO pay actually results in a worse product.

The "best and the brightest are not the ones who end up as CEOs of big companies." Pick one at random out of the Fortune 500. Give me a year to study the company and then replace him with me; I'm now the top dog. There is a 60% chance I will do a better job. I'm 26 and have no advanced degree. Do the same with a small business or a farm. There is almost a 0% chance I will do a better job. What does this say about large companies and their management?

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by CWuestefeld on Monday March 08, 2010 @10:20PM (#1177378)
I'd say that your belief that this is true is pretty much proof that it's not.

On what grounds do you believe that you can do better than the average Fortune 500 CEO? I assert that you're engaging in empty boasting, with absolutely nothing to back this up. How could there be? Have you any experience near the top management of a company this large and complex?

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by pw0ncakes on Monday March 08, 2010 @05:38PM (#1176714)
Executive pay may be small compared to the corporate balance sheet, but the level it's at allows for and encourages bad behavior.

1. The extreme disparity between CEO pay and other vital executives encourages people to backstab in order to ascend the hierarchy. So "work" for those who are in line to be CEOs is more about jockeying for position and trading favors than about building a company.

2. In addition to (1), such disparities are bad for morale, especially when the CEO is a "hired gun" instead of someone who has been part of the company for a long time.

Except in athletics, where talent is objectively measurable, the "star system" tends to piss off everyone but the stars, and let's be realistic: non-stars are 99% of people, and probably 3/4 of those who would be considered objectively the most competent.

3. When the CEO makes $500,000/year, he's drawing a good salary but still has the incentive to build a legitimately strong company for the long-term. When he has a "performance bonus" that will give him fuck-you money in 12 months if he plays his cards right, his incentives are in the short term.

4. When there are massive discrepancies in pay between the bosses and the people they are managing, the social class and lifestyle disconnects become problematic and can damage morale. This is why the best CEOs try to appear middle-class in terms of dress and work habits.

CEO pay is at such a level that it actually brings lower quality of management. This is what's truly alarming. Decades ago, when CEO pay was much lower, American companies were well-managed and produced great products like (imagine this for a second) cars that people actually wanted to buy. Now, big-company CEOs command stratospheric salaries and generally such ass. This is because executive pay is so high that it has pushed these people completely out of touch with reality.

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by tullius on Monday March 08, 2010 @07:05PM (#1176932)
Companies are much better managed now than they were a few decades ago. Think about the fact that corporate raiders were able to buy large companies in the 80's, split them apart and sell their constituent lines of business for more than the companies were previously worth.

CEO pay has simply increased in line with the market capitalization of the largest public companies.

Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by pw0ncakes on Monday March 08, 2010 @08:29PM (#1177166)
The stock market is a poor arbiter of whether a business decision is good for the long run. Traders are good at outguessing each other in the short term, but have no sense of the long term.
Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by CWuestefeld on Tuesday March 09, 2010 @09:05AM (#1178226)
Again, how about a citation? On what basis do you believe that they're not reflecting the long term?
Re:Just How Profitable Are Healthcare Insurers? by CWuestefeld on Monday March 08, 2010 @10:24PM (#1177390)
Nothing but supposition. Some of what you say is plausible, but can you offer any evidence that this is actually happening?

Let me offer you another possible explanation. When people are making this much money, it's not really about the money at all; they've already got FU money, and they're taking what they can get only because that's the arbiter of where their skills are most needed. Instead, they're doing what they do because they really like the business, or the challenge, or they really want to contribute something to society. I know the CEO of my company (not Fortune 500-sized, but nothing to sneeze at), and I'm absolutely certain that this is the reason that she does it.