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Re:Bootcamps vs. College by eropple on Thursday May 19, 2016 @01:25PM (#11731872)
> The only thing most grads have on bootcamp people is algorithm knowledge.

"Just teach algorithms." Do you have two years to spare to do so? Because I'm a platform engineer and I regularly use the extent of my CS mathematics education to write better code--you'd think this'd just be Ruby slinging, "what sort of math do you need to automate systems", but it ends up being remarkably more than that! But you know what else I use, while doing my day job? I use the lessons from my economics courses. I use the lessons from my sociology courses. I use the lessons from my political science courses. Are you gonna bootcamp those, too? Or are you going to turn out a marginally skilled worker with a worse educational foundation?

The only thing a civil engineer has over a carpenter is physics knowledge. Obviously.

Don't get me wrong: bootcamps are fine for some purposes, but in my experience they (and there are certainly exceptions in that experience, though rare--I'm thinking of a couple mid-career switches here) turn out mostly-employable workers with a shallower improvement curve and a relatively low ceiling by comparison. There are definitely roles for which I'd hire most of the folks I know who've gone into tech via boot camp classes. But, in my experience, those roles tend to be ones that are more junior than I'd other expect for their tenure and unless I need immediate productivity (and why would I be building a pipeline where I need that, but not the wisdom that comes with experience?), I will prefer somebody who is educated and not merely trained. Code and "coding" are stump-dumb simple and filtering for those minor applicative skills would be a disaster. Because I can teach skills, even if it requires an investment of effort on my part (heaven forfend!). I can't, practically, teach how to think.

Re:Bootcamps vs. College by humbleMouse on Thursday May 19, 2016 @01:35PM (#11731986)
I like your post and agree with most of what you said, except about the algorithms. I don't think you need 2 years to teach them. You need a highschool level understanding of Math and about a week. Obviously this varies from person to person - but I learned them extremely quickly.

I think where we are not seeing eye to eye here is that I envision a bootcamper that has a high aptitude for abstract thought, can read quickly, has a good understanding of math, and is motivated to keep learning and read books outside of "class".

If we are talking about two people who both do no outside reading other than what they are assigned - then yes, the college grad will be more prepared for abstract ideas/thought. However, if you take an otherwise smart person who reads lots of books and can learn things on the fly - then I think the sky is the limit.

Re:Bootcamps vs. College by nostrebored on Thursday May 19, 2016 @02:52PM (#11732679)
If you seriously think you can learn, with any amount of rigor and understanding, algorithms in a week you're absolutely delusional. I think that you would struggle to teach recursion including time complexity and practical applications in a week, and that's not even getting into simplex, dynamic programming, minimax, flow, etc...
Re:Bootcamps vs. College by eropple on Thursday May 19, 2016 @03:34PM (#11733070)
> I don't think you need 2 years to teach them.

We aren't talking about "the algorithms", and to be honest the way you keep referring to "algorithms", rather than a phrase like "algorithmic thinking", is indicative of the real disconnect here. Spewing quicksort at a problem is easy and doesn't require one to really understand it in the first place, and if that's why I said "two years" I'd be totally an idiot. But it wasn't. Two years of instruction is for the mathematics and logic to understand algorithmic thinking at a level where you can reason about problems and approach them from a compositional, mathematical perspective--and that is invaluable when your problem is more than "order a list to splat into HTML". It's not high-school mathematics at all, except for the ten-thousand-foot-view.

I have yet to meet a--what's the phrase that everyone loves, "autodidact"?--who was as comfortable with higher-order computational thinking as many of the people I've worked with. Hell, I wish I had more of a mathematical and CS background than I do. Paxos and the like are still really hard to me!

Re:Bootcamps vs. College by spdionis on Thursday May 19, 2016 @03:11PM (#11732867)
What algorithms did you learn in a week?

"I learned Algorithms in a week" sounds weird.

Re:Bootcamps vs. College by largote on Thursday May 19, 2016 @06:04PM (#11734236)
Rote memorizing algorithms is definitely not the same as understanding why and how they have their specific properties. When you can just use them as-is, it'll work, but without that understanding, tweaking for your specific use case will be hard.
Re:Bootcamps vs. College by imauld on Saturday May 21, 2016 @03:46AM (#11743683)
> I use the lessons from my economics courses. I use the lessons from my sociology courses. I use the lessons from my political science courses. Are you gonna bootcamp those, too? Or are you going to turn out a marginally skilled worker with a worse educational foundation?

Every single person in my boot camp class had a college education. One person was a college professor prior to attending. Several people actually had CS degrees that they felt didn't prepare them to do actual practical programming. We also had a lawyer and a couple of people with mathematics and physics degrees as well.

Re:Bootcamps vs. College by eropple on Sunday May 22, 2016 @01:46PM (#11749497)
That hasn't been my experience when working with or attempting to hire bootcamp grads, but I'm glad that it happens in some cases! I've seen a lot of HS-to-professional types, some with some college and some without.
Re:Bootcamps vs. College by imauld on Monday May 23, 2016 @04:09PM (#11756526)
I've been in one bootcamp class so my results may not be representative :-).

However I also get the feeling that being a developer has become more visible as well paying, in demand job similar to being lawyer was a decade or so ago. A lot of people wanted to be lawyers not because they were passionate about law but because they knew they could make a lot of money.

I get the impression that many people are drawn to boot camps by ads along the lines of "Make $XXk+ being a dev in X weeks" as opposed to being interested in the field.