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Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:35PM (#11709821)
"Building straight into the sky is easy."

Except, it isn't. Construction costs of taller buildings scale non-linearly with every additional story [1]. Building skyscrapers costs upwards of $300 per square foot, whereas single-family homes cost a fifth or a sixth of that. It's so much cheaper to build low-rises, in fact, that virtually no developers will take on a high-rise project unless the property is so expensive that it can command luxury prices. This is more-or-less true for mid-rise projects as well, though at a lower price point (~$200 per square foot).

The conversation about planning and NIMBYs is misguided. As the article concludes, the city is out of land. Any new construction requires buying and knocking down something else, and the choices are all various flavors of "expensive" or "inconvenient".

For example, east of Divisadero, the density of SF is actually pretty high:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7907112,-122.424097,3a,75y,4...

But west of Divisadero, there are huge sections of the city that look like a suburb:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7468355,-122.4598049,3a,75y,...

...the problem is, everyone wants to rebuild the dense parts to be skyscrapers (which is very expensive), and transit access to the suburban parts is quite bad. Developers won't build even medium-density projects in western parts of the city, because there's no demand, because there's no transit. Instead, they build higher density in the Mission and SOMA. These buildings will always be expensive, "luxury" units, because at $300+/sq.ft. construction costs the economics don't pencil out otherwise.

[1] https://westnorth.com/2014/03/18/between-rocks-and-a-tall-pl...

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by rayiner on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:42PM (#11709871)
> Instead, they build class I-III in the Mission and SOMA. These buildings will always be "luxury" units, because at $300+/sq.ft. construction costs the economics don't pencil out otherwise.

In the long run, that isn't true. A skyscraper has a useful life well in excess of 50 years. If you look at places like Chicago, you'll see that luxury high-rises get renovated 20-30 years in to become mid-range places.

Of course, that requires the foresight to have permitted enough high-rise construction yesterday.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by makomk on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:56PM (#11709958)
It requires something more than foresight - it also requires that the demand for mid-range apartments now matches up with the demand for luxury high-rise apartments several decades ago, and there's simply no reason why this should be so. (Oh, and as timr points out, it also requires that the buildings can't more profitably be refurbished into luxury apartments. Basically, it needs to be grotty enough that the wealthy don't want to live there, but not so derelict that it gets demolished.)
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by rconti on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:40PM (#11710205)
To no one in particular, from TFA, w/r/t "luxury" housing:

"Surprisingly, given the anxiety over "luxury" apartments vs regular, non-luxurious ones, there does not appear to be any segmentation in the rental market in any year, even by unit size. In every year with more than a handful of listings, the total pool of prices is a smooth curve (except for the occasional taboo price: landlords were strangely reluctant to offer apartments for exactly $105), approximately lognormally distributed. The 95th percentile apartment always rents for about 2.2 times the price of the median apartment, and the 5th percentile apartment for about 1/2.2 of the price of the median apartment, but see below about variability in this. "

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by dragonwriter on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:54PM (#11709947)
> In the long run, that isn't true. A skyscraper has a useful life well in excess of 50 years. If you look at places like Chicago

...they aren't like San Francisco. In addition to construction costs, I wonder what the effect of periodic major earthquakes is on maintenance costs of large buildings. And, particularly, the relative costs of larger vs. smaller buildings.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by vonmoltke on Monday May 16, 2016 @07:11PM (#11710326)
Doesn't seem to be dissuading high-rise construction much in LA.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:52PM (#11709934)
"In the long run, that isn't true. A skyscraper has a useful life well in excess of 50 years. If you look at places like Chicago, you'll see that luxury high-rises get renovated 20-30 years in to become mid-range places."

It really depends. They just gutted 101 Van Ness (a pre-existing 1960s-era skyscraper) and turned it into housing. It's all luxury -- the cheapest units are upwards of $3000 a month for a tiny studio. When developers renovate a building, they ask for what the market can bear, not for their cost of redevelopment.

All you can really do is assume that long-term, more housing is good, and less housing is bad. That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that new construction doesn't help anyone but wealthy people in SF, today.

"In the long run, we're all dead."

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by harryh on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:04PM (#11710009)
> That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that new construction doesn't help anyone but wealthy people in SF, today.

If you build more luxury housing it lowers the price of luxury housing so that a marginally less rich person can move to that tier.

That marginal move reduces the demand on the next lower tier of housing which should reduce the price at that level.

And so on, and so on...

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by moultano on Monday May 16, 2016 @07:10PM (#11710325)
Just like hermit crabs when a slightly bigger shell is available. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1dnocPQXDQ#t=1m33s
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by harryh on Monday May 16, 2016 @07:48PM (#11710456)
Ha! Yes!

Love that analogy!

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:20PM (#11710098)
This was addressed by the source article. It happens a bit, but it isn't magic: one of the author's models found that for every 1% increase in housing, rents dropped by 1.7%.

Lowering rents enough to make SF affordable for poor people requires construction on a scale that isn't just impractical -- it's economically impossible. No developer would choose to build into such a market with fixed construction costs at hundreds of dollars per square foot.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by harryh on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:26PM (#11710136)
Indeed construction costs are far too high! Significant zoning changes are needed to make SF more affordable for large swaths of the economic spectrum. And even then, unfortunately, it will take time. Buildings don't go up overnight. The problems that SF is experiencing today are due to decades of mistakes.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by irq11 on Monday May 16, 2016 @07:15PM (#11710343)
The costs he is citing are fixed. They don't have anything to do with zoning or past decisions by San Francisco.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by gech on Monday May 16, 2016 @09:09PM (#11710731)
Can you promise that
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by tptacek on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @08:42AM (#11713089)
Only in the same sense that you can promise that an apple released from your hand will fall to the earth and not hover in mid-air.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @05:14PM (#11717498)
Oh, come now...if it were that certain, the article wouldn't have gone out of its way to explore the question. There's actually no guarantee at all that the markets for high-end and low-end goods are linked.

The price of Lamborghinis doesn't have much to do with the price of Kias.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by tptacek on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @05:30PM (#11717617)
What a strange analogy. There's no scarcity to Kias at all; the car is built to command a particular price point. There's a huge surplus of drivable cars. That's not the case with SF real estate, even a little bit.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @07:21PM (#11718440)
The metaphor is fine. You're making my argument: there's no inherent reason that the prices of luxury products should influence the prices of commodity products. In fact, barring exceptional circumstances (i.e. shortages) they usually don't. It isn't safe to assume that "construction" will lower rents for everyone. Even here.

Despite conventional wisdom and lots of hand-waving justifications, there's actually very little evidence that building more luxury units impacts low-end housing prices on anything but the long term. Even the author of this piece is falling back to long-term averages to make his argument, and the results are...tepid. A 2% reduction in aggregate, long-term rents for every 1% of new housing built is not a screaming endorsement for indiscriminate construction.

If you have data that shows otherwise, feel free to cite it.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by tptacek on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @07:26PM (#11718467)
There are a fixed number of residential slots in the SF real estate market. There is undersupply at every level of the market. If a slot is labeled "luxury", lower-income people will not move in there. But the converse isn't true: higher-income people will take "low-income" slots (see: the Mission) if that's all that's available.

No part of this market in any way resembles the market for Lamborghinis and Kias.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @07:39PM (#11718534)
Yeah, I understand what you're saying: there's a shortage of housing, and there's not a shortage of economy cars. But that's not a rebuttal to the argument I'm making.

The question is whether or not new luxury housing makes rents cheaper for poor folks, today. Even here, in the epicenter of a housing crisis, there's not a lot of evidence that it does. But there's evidence that preferentially building low-income housing does make a difference.

This isn't a controversial or irrational or counter-intuitive argument: there are a lot of great reasons that a rich person might choose to live in a cheaper apartment. It isn't a given that rich people will self-segregate to luxury buildings because "luxury". So at the end of the day, you're back to aggregate supply vs. aggregate demand. And if that's the case, why not build for low-income people instead?

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by tptacek on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @07:45PM (#11718567)
Is there a coherent argument you can make that doesn't depend on upper-income people shunning lower-income neighborhoods in San Francisco? Because the evidence strongly suggests that they don't: that when luxury housing is unavailable, upper-income people in the Bay Area move on to claim lower-income housing.

(I lived in Bayview for a bit, and I was hardly the only tech person I knew who lived there.)

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @08:01PM (#11718650)
"Is there a coherent argument you can make that doesn't depend on upper-income people shunning lower-income neighborhoods in San Francisco? Because the evidence strongly suggests that they don't"

I'm not claiming that they do. I'm arguing the opposite: if you build only luxury, it doesn't help poor people much, because most people will try to get the cheapest, nicest housing they can find. Building luxury units helps only to the extent that building anything here helps -- and if we believe the OP, it doesn't help very much at all.

Basically, this: you lived in Bayview, so you know who lives there. Knocking down every existing low-density home in Bayview and replacing it with market-rate housing would displace a huge number of poor folks. It probably also helps lower aggregate rents for everyone in SF by $40 a month or whatever, but that's thin gruel to the people who were there before.

This is the fundamental dilemma facing all construction in San Francisco.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by tptacek on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @11:32AM (#11722648)
Since I didn't advocate bulldozing Bayview for luxury condos, I'm not sure where to go from here. It seems like you've conceded my central point.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @09:00PM (#11727215)
Only in the sense that I disagree completely and shown that you're wrong. ;-)

There's no guarantee that building luxury housing lowers prices, which is what you were implying. You have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by eru on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @01:01AM (#11711445)
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by hundt on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @11:14AM (#11714320)
Thanks, that was a very interesting read!
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by eru on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @09:42PM (#11719138)
Thanks for reading. If you liked that, you might also like

http://www.masongaffney.org/publications/G2009-Hidden_Taxabl...

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by eru on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @01:00AM (#11711441)
If you don't build luxury housing for wealthy people, they just bid up the existing housing stock.

Look up filtering down. As houses age, they become less luxurious.

See http://cityobservatory.org/what-filtering-can-and-cant-do/

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by imgabe on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:10PM (#11710044)
The big price jump is where you have to switch over from wood construction to steel. Once you're high enough that you need a steel structure you may as well build it as tall as you can to get as much use out of the land as possible.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by x0x0 on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:41PM (#11709861)
Why is $300/ ft2 construction costs a problem when condos are going for $1k / ft2? Even selling condos for $600 / ft2 would be a major improvement.

data: http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/San_Francisco-California/m... then click the wavy graph next to "explore this area" sales price / sqft

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by twinkletwinkle on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:51PM (#11709925)
A quick distinction, you have to build all of a skyscraper but you only get to sell part of it as condos. There are hallways, janitors' closets, fire stairways, etc etc.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by timr on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:58PM (#11709967)
Yes, this exactly. If you can get 70% efficiency in a skyscraper you're doing phenomenally well. Also, the cost of land isn't included in the $300/sq.ft. number (though that becomes a proportionately smaller concern for taller buildings, for obvious reasons), nor the costs of financing, insurance, maintenance, etc.

But more to the point, these numbers set only the lower bound on what a unit will sell for. These numbers don't predict the final market price of new construction, but they tell you when a project can be justified.

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by x0x0 on Monday May 16, 2016 @06:34PM (#11710173)
Hmm, [1] suggests 25% overhead for 30-40 stories.

Maintenance is largely irrelevant to the sales price, assuming the HOA/condo association fees aren't wildly out of line with others. Also, these should scale linearly or sub-linearly I'd think.

I still don't see an answer to why $300/ft2 (or hell, $500/ft2) construction costs are a problem when condos sell for $1k +- 50 ft2 in the north east chunk of sf. Even $500/0.70 = $714 / salable ft2. Which should make selling prices near $1k a damn attractive proposition.

The cost of land goes as

   (land cost / ft2) / ((1/0.7) x (stories - 1))
so even $5k/ft2 of land cost comes out to $103 per salable ft2 on a 35 story building.

[1] https://westnorth.com/2015/04/27/high-rises-land-efficient-b...

Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by x0x0 on Monday May 16, 2016 @10:17PM (#11710978)
Replying to self: denominator on land costs should have factor .7 not (1/.7) so $210. Embarrassed.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by kbenson on Monday May 16, 2016 @05:45PM (#11709888)
An hour north of SF, my single family home cost me $216 sq. ft. Prices in SF are significantly higher. Trulia makes it look to be ~ $700-$1000 sq. ft.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by kelnos on Tuesday May 17, 2016 @07:51PM (#11718595)
I don't mean to belittle your choice as I assume you're happy with it. But please understand that, for a lot of people, living an hour north of SF is too far for their taste. Even to the point of being worth the extra money.
Re:Employment, construction, and the cost of San Francisco a... by kbenson on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @12:28AM (#11719738)
I think you lost track of the thread at some point. I supplied housing prices at my location to counter the parent's assertion that skyscrapers were too costly as supported by "Building skyscrapers costs upwards of $300 per square foot, whereas single-family homes cost a fifth or a sixth of that." I was not trying to suggest that people move an hour away for cheaper housing, but that even an hour away, a skyscraper at those prices isn't necessarily a bad deal, making it much more feasible in SF.