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Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by Hondor on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:02AM (#11672751)
I'm a climate change skeptic and what would convince me is

- less trying to convince people

- less calls to action

- less promotion of the tiny irrelevant bad things that it's doing

- less hiding of the good things it's doing

- more promotion of engineering solutions

The fact that the media presentation of it is so clearly biased in these ways makes me automatically distrust it. I know they're trying to mislead people, and you surely do too. Why would you believe someone who you know is trying to deceive you?

We have no reliable predictions of any serious consequences of global warming. According to the IPCC, it's not going to be a big deal within 100 years. Beyond that time frame, there's plenty of opportunity for us to adapt, fix it, or be wrong in our predictions.

The current estimate for sea level rise is about 70cm by 2100. That won't flood very much at all. A few sandbars, sprawling beaches and already-flood-prone river deltas, but not many actual cities. New York for instance won't be flooded by a 70cm sea level rise even though it was flooded by a recent hurricane. 70 cm is smaller than regular tide heights, smaller than wave heights, it's just not very significant for most coastal cities. Where it is significant, they can just build more land. I come from a city which has metal plaques on the road in the middle of town saying "this is where the shoreline used to be". We can just modify our shorelines with earthworks.

The current estimate for temperature rise is 2-6 degrees C by 2100. 6 degrees is the extreme case and probably won't happen, so maybe we get 3 degrees. What will that do to agriculture? I don't know, but we do know that food grows over a much wider range of climate across the world so it can't completely destroy it. Furthermore, it will come gradually, giving farmers many decades to adapt. What will it do to people directly? Nothing because it's negligible compared to daily and seasonal variations.

More tropical diseases? People in the tropics already suffer from those and we don't care about them today so why would we care about other people having them in the future?

More severe storms? We already have severe storms and construction in high risk areas is designed to cope with them. We'll just adjust the building codes as the risk changes.

Worried that people won't adapt until it really hurts them? No, property owners won't want to be left holding the bag when their land becomes worthless, so the market will sort that out. Whoever's farm stops producing or whoever's house get washed out to sea pays for it out of their own pocket so they'll be strongly incentivized to protect it or sell it long before that happens.

So this is my concern with global warming - yes it's happening and man-made or not, it probably won't hurt us enough to worry about. There's no room for that position in the 2-extremes view of the debate.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by throwaway5752 on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:19AM (#11672784)
"70 cm is smaller than regular tide heights, smaller than wave heights, it's just not very significant for most coastal cities"

You understand of course, that now the tides and the waves will be a meter higher. As will storm surges from future storms.

You also understand, of course, that part of the alarm is because that the more data that's collected and the more mature the models get, the faster and steeper the see level rise projections get (DeConto & Pollard, 3/2016, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v531/n7596/full/nature1...).

Another part of the alarm is the extent that the 2016 climate data thus far is worse than models predicted.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by Hondor on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:50AM (#11672881)
If the more mature models show higher sea level rises, then why didn't the IPCC just include that "meta trend" in the current models - predicting both the climate and the future models? That would be extremely risky. We obviously can't know what future models will show, no matter how they've been changing in the past.

2106 data is meaningless. It's only a few months out of a many decades trend filled with noise. If you count that, then you also have to count all the months which had lower than predicted temperatures and use them to show the models are wrong. This is the bias I'm talking about. Cherry picking any bit of data that shows it's bad.

Of course a higher mean sea level means higher peaks too. But so what? New York survives occasional floods, and it can survive slightly more.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by throwaway5752 on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:01AM (#11672930)
2016 data specifically refers to Arctic Sea ice coverage, which - if you research it for yourself - you'll find is very significant.
Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by Hondor on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @06:07AM (#11673960)
I see. But it's still not clear if it's part of a trend or not. What if the maximum arctic sea ice coverage is higher next year? That will show that 2016 record low wasn't part of the trend and maybe was an anomaly. We can't know that until more years have passed. I'm sure every year isn't a new record low.

By the way, while I was researching that, I also found the "global greening" effect. This is what I'd like to see more of in mainstream media - interesting things happening with global warming that aren't all bad. It would show less of a bias.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by danieltillett on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @02:47AM (#11673085)
I think you are confusing what is the cause of global climate change with what should be done.

One area I agree very much with the deniers is that our models are not very good. This worries me the most since we really have no idea what will happen and if we will hit any non-linearities. We are running a massive experiment on the whole planet with a very poor idea of what the consequences are.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by Hondor on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @06:31AM (#11674068)
I'm not confusing them. But people who see it as a two-sided argument are. What you said about an experiment and having no idea sounds like my impression of the state of the science too. But you wouldn't know if from the news media which seems very sure of itself and very sure that things are going to be bad, and very sure that riding a bike to work or buying an EV will make us into good people. That's the problem I see.

AGW deniers, I think are hoping to derail the whole thing by showing that humans didn't cause it. But that's not the only skeptical view you can take. I think yours is about the same as mine.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by drjesusphd on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @03:05AM (#11673156)
> less trying to convince people

> less calls to action

> less promotion of the tiny irrelevant bad things that it's doing

> less hiding of the good things it's doing

> more promotion of engineering solutions

So absolutely nothing to do with actual evidence then.

Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by Hondor on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @06:24AM (#11674034)
None of us have actual evidence. I don't mean looking at a graph that somebody claims came from a model that happened to match observations. I mean evidence that doesn't depend on trusting people who are trying to persuade you. For example running a model yourself, trying to get no global warming and failing, or trying to get global warming without fossil fuel burning. These things are really hard for non-specialists to do so we don't. The whole subject is outside the range of what laymen can understand themselves. All we can do it trust others. If those others are trying to persuade us of something then we shouldn't trust them unless we just want to serve their interests, whatever they happen to be.
Re:Five Pacific islands disappear as sea levels rise by mistermann on Wednesday May 11, 2016 @01:37AM (#11672843)
I'd say I fall into this camp a bit, I agree with your leading points and have a similar suspicious feeling about how the whole thing is marketed.