> There's not enough demand to make them competitive in price-performance.

There does not need to be demand: Steve Jobs (in)famously said that where there was no market, "create one".

I for one would absolutely love to be able to buy an illumos-powered A4-sized tablet which ran a SPARC V9 instruction set, plugged into a docking station, and worked with a wireless keyboard and mouse to be used as a workstation when I'm not walking around with my UNIX server in hand. Very much akin to Apple Computer's iPad Pro (or whatever they call it, I don't remember, nor is that really relevant).

But the most important point was, and still is, and always will be: it has to cost as much as the competition, or less. Sun Microsystems would just not accept that, no matter how much I tried to explain and reason with people there: "talk to the pricing committee". What does that even mean?!? Was the pricing committee composed of mute, deaf and blind people who were not capable of seeing that PC-buckets were eating Sun's lunch, or what?

"There does not need to be demand: Steve Jobs (in)famously said that where there was no market, "create one"."

What people forget is that Steve Jobs was a repeated failure at doing that, got fired, did soul-searching, succeeded with NEXT, got acquired, and then started doing what you describe. Even he failed more than he succeeded at that stuff. A startup trying to one-off create a market just for a non-competitive chip is going to face the dreaded 90+% failure rate.

"But the most important point was, and still is, and always will be: it has to cost as much as the competition, or less."

That's why the high-security stuff never makes it. It takes at least 30% premium on average per component. I totally believe your words fell on deaf ears at Sun. I'd have bought SunBlades myself if I could afford them. I could afford nice PC's. So, I bought nice PC's. Amazing that echo chamber was so loud in there that they couldn't make that connection.

"I for one would absolutely love to be able to buy an illumos-powered A4-sized tablet which ran a SPARC V9 instruction set"

That's actually feasible given the one I promote is 4-core, 1+GHz embedded chip that should be low power on decent process node.

http://www.gaisler.com/index.php/products/processors/leon4?t...

The main issue is the ecosystem and components like browsers with JIT's that must be ported to SPARC. One company managed to port Android to MIPS but that was a lot of work. Such things could probably be done for SPARC as well. The trick is implementing the ASIC, implementing the product, porting critical software, and then charging enough to recover that but not more than competition whose work is already done for them. Tricky, tricky.

Raptor's Talos Workstation, if people buy it, will provide one model that this might happen. Could get ASIC's on 45-65nm really quick, use SMP given per-chip cost is $10-30, port Solaris/Linux w/ containers, put in a shitload of RAM, and sell it for $3,000-6,000 for VM-based use and development. It would still take thousands of units to recover cost. Might need government sales.

The problem is the number of people who are into Illumos and want a portable Unix server is insignificant. All products came with fixed overheads (e.g. cost of tooling to start production), which have to be divided over the likely customer base. Small customer base == each customer pays a bigger share of the fixed overheads.

Basically, you want something to suit you and a small number of other people, but you won't pay for the cost of having something that "tailor made". You will only pay for the high-volume, lower-cost, more general product. So... that's all you get.

The problems were Sun's failure to recognize that cheap IBM PC clones would disrupt them like they disrupted mainframes and Sun not trying hard enough to overcome Wintel's network effect. Sun needed to die shrink old designs to get something that they could fabricate at low cost and compete on price. Such a thing would have canabalized Sun workstation sales, which might be why they never did it.

Could be. It's gone now, though.

You again! (:-) You know that the VHDL code for UltraSPARC T1 and T2 has been open sourced? If I had enough knowledge about synthesizing code inside of an FPGA, I would be building my own SPARC-based servers like there is no tomorrow!

As long as the code for those processors remains free, and a license to implement a SPARC ISA compliant processor only costs $50, the SPARC will never really, truly be gone, especially not for those people capable of synthesizing their own FPGA's, or even building their own hardware.

Some people did exactly that, a while back. Too bad they didn't turn their designs into ready-to-buy servers.

" You know that the VHDL code for UltraSPARC T1 and T2 has been open sourced?"

That was exciting. It could do well even on a 200MHz FPGA given threading performance. Then, use eASIC's Nextreme's to convert it to structured ASIC for better speed, power-usage, and security from dynamic attacks on FPGA. That it's Oracle and they're sue-happy concerns me. I'd read that "GPL" license very carefully just in case they tweaked it. If it's safe, then drop one of those badboys (yes, the T2) on the best node we can afford with key I/O. Can use microcontrollers on the board for the rest as they're dirt cheap. Same model as Raptor's as I explained in another comment.

Alternatively, use Gaisler as Leon3 is GPL and designed for customization. Simple, too. Leon4 is probably inexpensive compared to ARM, etc.

"SPARC ISA compliant processor only costs $50, the SPARC will never really, truly be gone, especially not for those people capable of synthesizing their own FPGA's,"

Yep.

"Too bad they didn't turn their designs into ready-to-buy servers."

Not quite a server but available and illustrates your point:

http://www.gaisler.com/index.php/products/systems/gr-rasta?t...

Btw, I found this accidentally while looking for a production version of OpenSPARC:

http://palms.ee.princeton.edu/node/381

FPGA is not magic. SPARC implemented on FPGA will never be competitive with consumer-level x86's

No, they are magic: arbitrary hardware designs run without the cost of chip fabrication. Two non-profit FPGA's, one for performance at 28nm & one for embedded at 28SLPnm, would totally address the custom hardware and subversion problem given we could just keep checking on that one. The PPC cores and soon Intel Xeons already show what a good CPU plus FPGA accleration w/ local memory can do for applications.

Yeah, buddy, they're like magic hardware. Even if they aren't ASIC-competitive for the best ASIC's. Still magic with a market share and diverse applications that shows it. :)

I thought that is clear? Apparently not...

FPGA's are cheap and good enough for prototyping; once one has a working VHDL / Verilog code, it's tapeout time.

Security wise, a FPGA is superior to consumer level x86 processors. How do you backdoor a FPGA?

In more ways than you'd know. They're already pre-backdoored like almost all other chips for debugging purposes in what's called Design for Test or scan chains or scan probes or something. Much hardware hacking involves getting to those suckers to see what chip is doing.

Now, for remote attacks, you can embed RF circuitry in them that listens to any of that. You can embed circuits that receive incoming command, then dump its SRAM contents. You might modify the I/O circuitry to recognize a trapdoor command that runs incoming data as privileged instructions. You can put a microcontroller in there connected to PCI to do the same for host PC attacks. I know, that would be first option but I was having too much fun with RTL and transistor level. :)

> There's not enough demand to make them competitive in price-performance

High-end chips only need to compete with other high-end chips. And low-end SPARC will not take off now that x86 has taken over.

You make that sound easy. The POWER and SPARC T/M chips are amazing. Yet, Intel Xeon still dominates to point that they can charge less and invest more. That's with one hell of a head start from Sun and IBM. The other's... Alpha, MIPS, and PA-RISC... folded in server markets with Itanium soon to follow.

You can't just compete directly in that market: you have to convince them yours is worth buying for less performance at higher price and watts. Itanium tried with reliability & security advantages. Failed. Fortunately, Dover is about to try with RISC-V combined with SAFE architecture (crash-safe.org) for embedded stuff. We'll see what happens there.