News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by basch on Monday May 09, 2016 @02:31PM (#11662008)
at the same time, how do you feel about creationism and intelligent design being suppressed instead of given equal airtime with competing theories.

what constitutes "fair?" if one group is twice as loud while delivering the same amount of content, is it unfair to turn their volume down by half?

how about something like snopes or myth debunking? does dr oz deserve equal placement to more credible nutrition science? what is worse, attempting to surface more legitimate sources, or letting your site turn into a free for all shouting match?

for anyone downvoting me because they think I approve of censorship if my side wins: quite the contrary. I think from a purely theoretical standpoint, signal to noise is a complicated problem, and the people who reject the idea of filtering or ranking in totality are being unrealistic. allowing the loudest speakers to unabatedly monopolize collective attention is a problem.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by Grishnakh on Monday May 09, 2016 @04:00PM (#11662660)
Quis custodiet ipsos custodet? (Who watches the watchers?)

To have some kind of filtering or curation, you necessarily have to put some people into a position of power where they have the ability to censor this noise. On a forum where it's explicitly known that such "moderators" are present, and even better if their biases are known, this is perfectly fine. If I'm on a science-oriented discussion forum and it's advertised that the moderators of this forum will ban anyone who attempts to spread pseudoscience or anti-science religious junk, that'll help attract me because I don't want waste my time looking at that crap.

There's also forums where there's very little such curation, and instead community moderation is mostly relied on: users are given moderation points to boost or suppress other posts. That's fine too: you know going in what the deal is, so you just have to see if you mesh with the other members or not.

However, if a forum claims to be "open" and "inclusive" but then censors people, that's just hypocritical and wrong. If you're going to push a bias, then you have to at least inform users of this.

As it relates to Facebook, which is supposed to be for everyone and not just people of a certain political persuasion, they shouldn't be censoring anything unless they're going to make this known up-front (which they haven't). "Trending topics" should be anything that's highly popular. If some completely wrong and debunked BS is the most popular new story among your site's users, then you need to show that at the top, or else you're not serving your users. If you don't like that, then you either need to inform them of how you're going to censor and slant things, or you need to get rid of users you don't like. Or maybe just get rid of the "trending topics" section, and replace it with something more fine-tuned so that one group of users doesn't get annoyed at seeing junk they disagree with that another group of users really likes.

The simple fact is that you can't please everyone. If you try, you're going to fail. Sites like Reddit avoid this by having tons of different sub-forums, each with their own rules and moderators. Some far-right conservative wackos can co-exist with far-left liberals there because they're on separate subreddits.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by basch on Monday May 09, 2016 @04:12PM (#11662748)
>However, if a forum claims to be "open" and "inclusive" but then censors people, that's just hypocritical and wrong.

I just dont think the trending stories ever made an emphatic claim to be open and inclusive, nor is promoting some stories artificially the equivalent to "censorship." Not allowing stories in the timeline is completely different than manually choosing the trending stories for a day.

Facebook has always been pro censorship. No nipples, no porn. I dont think of facebook as a place for free speech, and I never felt as if the trending stories was some organic popular list. I know everything on facebook is specifically chosen to get ME to click.

That said, watching the watchers is easy if sites publish transparency reports and publish "stories we didnt cover." Problem solved.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by Grishnakh on Monday May 09, 2016 @05:15PM (#11663277)
Oh please. When I see "trending stories", that implies that the stories are popular, not that they've been manually selected or filtered by some unelected group with an obvious bias and agenda.

As for porn, if the site clearly states that that's something they censor, that's fine. Lots of sites do that. But yes, the whole name "trending stories" absolutely does imply an "organic popular list". If you "know" that this isn't really what it is, that's great for your insight, but it's still lying on the part of Facebook.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by basch on Monday May 09, 2016 @05:51PM (#11663511)
i see no implication of interventionless "most popular."

especially on facebook. each person's trending stories could be different and be presented based on what it thinks is popular AND applicable to you. all i see is "here is a subsample of some of our most popular stories." do you and your friends have the same trending stories at the same time? cuz i get regional stories. im sure my friends in other regions dont get those stories. it is quite obviously targeting me based on something besides a global trending list.

nothing on facebook is ever organic. and ive never seen facebook claim anything was.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by Grishnakh on Monday May 09, 2016 @08:21PM (#11664352)
>especially on facebook. each person's trending stories could be different and be presented based on what it thinks is popular AND applicable to you.

I would agree that this is a fair assumption to make about how it should work.

>cuz i get regional stories. im sure my friends in other regions dont get those stories.

Yes, that's no different than Google News. That's an entirely fair thing to do: tailor a person's feed for their preferences and locality.

>it is quite obviously targeting me based on something besides a global trending list.

Yes, and as long as it's unbiased, there's no problem with that. Especially if users can configure it (maybe I'd really like to see local news items from my hometown, for instance).

However, if they're intentionally omitting news feed items because they don't like them, that's wrong. Omitting news feed items from your feed because you don't live in Laramie, Wyoming and these items are only of interest to locals there is one thing; omitting items because they're of interest to a political group that you don't care for is entirely another.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by basch on Tuesday May 10, 2016 @10:22AM (#11667355)
having humans tagging certain stories as "not news" is not evil agenda based bias, it is spam filtering.

just because a group of people start shouting about something loudly, and the shouting gets popular, doesnt mean facebook should choose to amplify it.

for example, think of mean girls. when gretchen is trying to make fetch happen, and regina says "Gretchen, stop trying to make fetch happen! It's not going to happen!" A group of likeminded people, say republicans in this example, could be trying to make someone appear popular by shouting their name a lot, ad nauseum. that doesnt make it newsworthy outside the echo chamber.

if the republican network is more coordinated and better at discussing one topic at at time than the democrats, they can push a story higher on the trending list. people being able to manipulate the trending list through coordination isnt ideal. if you want a gamified, competitive trending list, visit twitter. letting pure popularity and activity overrule common sense is foolhearted. i have never seen facebook claim their trending list behaved like twitter (which is where it seems you are getting your ideal trending behavior concept from.)

using humans to balance the trending stories, instead of letting one ideology take it over, is a good thing. but balance doesnt always mean fair or equal. myths dont deserve equal space to debunking. intelligent design doesnt automatically deserve equal placement to more accredited theories. if something is factually wrong, facebook can remove a story from trending to prevent its spread.

plus, algorithms are going to display some kind of bias. any sort of spam filter will disfavor certain noise. is blocking viagra ads bias? algorithms written by people will lean in SOME direction. believing in unbias is naive.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by Grishnakh on Tuesday May 10, 2016 @12:05PM (#11668200)
BS. "Spam" is advertising; news you don't agree with is not.

Yes, if Facebook users shout about something loudly and it gets popular, FB has no right to squelch that just because they disagree with it. That's censorship.

If Democrat voters don't like the Republican-aimed news, FB can and should make sure their news feeds are tailored for users so that people don't see stuff from sources they think are junk and so their feeds are more tailored for them and their preferences. I have no problem with that. That's how Google News works; I can tell it to not show me news from crappy sites like Breitbart or WND. But it doesn't censor those sources against my will; if for some crazy reason I really liked those site, I could tell GN to show them to me, and I can set my preference for those sites to a higher factor. The whole key here is user choice: having some fedora-wearing hipster at Facebook telling me what I should and shouldn't be reading is asinine and condescending. Having the ability to configure my news feeds to show me what I want, and hide things I think are garbage, is absolutely correct however.

Re:Former Facebook Workers: We Routinely Suppressed Conserva... by basch on Tuesday May 10, 2016 @12:22PM (#11668344)
It might be censorship if facebook were preventing people from posting the stories on each others walls. It might be suspicious if they were tuning the newsfeed algorithm to avoid the stories. But manipulating what stories make it to trending is not censorship. It seems like you are conflating the newsfeed and trending box. The newsfeed is neverending algorithmic magic, the trending box is an editorial masthead controlled "some popular things on our site", that appears in the sidebar. Facebook taking editorial control of the trending sidebar has nothing to do with your ability to configure your newsfeed to suit your desires.

Also, political avocation is marketing and can be spam. Unsolicited "Vote for Ted" emails are spam in my book.