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Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by notduncansmith on Sunday May 08, 2016 @11:26AM (#11654391)
Luck just means you don't know the cause behind an effect.

Attributing success to "luck" is therefore simply putting the conditions for success outside your locus of control.

Attributing it to "grit" or some other personal quality puts the conditions for success within your locus of control.

For many people (myself included), the latter philosophy is more helpful as it makes success seem more deliberately achievable. Combined with a strong sense of agency, this philosophy can imbue its proponents with more confidence than those waiting for "luck" to happen (or who have given up on it happening).

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by ThomPete on Sunday May 08, 2016 @12:03PM (#11654539)
That doesn't really change that of all those with grit those who are the luckiest win over those with grit who aren't.

You are trying to apply a method to being successful. Have grit and you will be succesful.

But having grit is only going to take you so far. Many people have grit. Luck will take you the rest.

The problem with you way of looking at things is that you are basically saying that those that don't have success don't have grit and therefore imply that it's their fault they don't. Which then create weird myths like the poor people are just lazy and don't have enough grit etc.

This is a lie with enough evidence to contradict. The fact that much of success is due to circumstances has been proven again and again. That does not mean that those that were successful din't also have grit. They did, they were also just the lucky ones with grit.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by notduncansmith on Sunday May 08, 2016 @12:55PM (#11654690)
> you are basically saying that those that don't have success don't have grit

I don't remember saying that - please point out where I did.

Thinking about your success in terms of factors you can control can improve your chances of success if you draw confidence from that philosophy, and lots of people do. The appearance of confidence (and the correlation between confidence and appearing confident) has been shown to improve chances of success in various situations.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by ThomPete on Sunday May 08, 2016 @01:20PM (#11654783)
You are saying that by trying to force it into being a thing you can control.

And again many people have confidence that doesn't mean they all have success.

Keep in mind this article was trying to find the most encompassing reason for success.

There is none as encompassing as luck. All the others are a subset.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by notduncansmith on Sunday May 08, 2016 @01:45PM (#11654892)
I said originally that luck is just the set of things you don't know about. By definition, it thusly can't be an "encompassing reason" (implied singular) - it's a name that refers to a collection of reasons (a subset of all possible reasons).

The discussions of confidence mindset and one's control over "success" are orthogonal, but I'm happy to discuss them.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by ThomPete on Sunday May 08, 2016 @01:56PM (#11654941)
Of course it can be an encompassing reason if that is the one that is to find in every case. Grit isn't, some are successful without grit, confidence isn't either some are successful while not confident.

But luck, luck you find in every single case.

The reason of success is luck luck in chance encounters which then leads to unpredictable outcomes amongst others success.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by mindcrime on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:31PM (#11656794)
Sounds like a post-hoc fallacy to me. Or maybe a "just so story". You can always unwind somebody's story and find some point in the story where something happened that they could not necessarily have predicted, and cry "see, this person only succeeded because of luck". But we can't evaluate all the branches in the tree of outcomes that didn't happen exactly because they didn't happen.

If you believe that people, to some extent "make their own luck" via their choices and actions, then you could just as easily speculate that if "lucky event A" didn't happen, then something else "lucky" would have happened anyway.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by ThomPete on Monday May 09, 2016 @12:18AM (#11657592)
And so your argument against what I am saying is that you don't like it to be that way.

Thats not an argument against what I am saying, that's just an opinion about the consequences of my argument.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by mindcrime on Monday May 09, 2016 @03:42PM (#11662543)
What?!??? What you just said has nothing to do with what I wrote above.
Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by ThomPete on Tuesday May 10, 2016 @08:31AM (#11666713)
Yes it does.

You don't like the idea that luck could be the actual all embedding factor of success.

"If you believe that people, to some extent "make their own luck" via their choices and actions, then you could just as easily speculate that if "lucky event A" didn't happen, then something else "lucky" would have happened anyway."

No you can't speculate that at all. But I would like to see you try.

You are just trying to insist that there is this path to success that can be taken without luck being involved which just isn't the case.

The question that was asked is whether grit is the one factor to become successful.

It's not, it can't be because if it was everyone who had grit would be successful they are not and so something else is needed. That thing is luck. Whether lucky that you were born with better of parents, higher IQ, extreme talent, went to the right school, meet the right people at the right time, have the right idea at the right time and so on.

Grit is only there to make you stay in the game long enough that you might end up being successful but it can never be the all encompassing factor that explains it all. Only luck can.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by mindcrime on Tuesday May 10, 2016 @11:23AM (#11667849)
I really don't know what you're talking about. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said, and/or apparently intentionally misinterpreting my words. So with all due respect, I'm going to just drop out of this "discussion".
Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by zepto on Sunday May 08, 2016 @12:47PM (#11654670)
Luck does indeed mean you don't know the cause and effect and that those conditions are outside of your control.

That's because they are.

It may be helpful for you to maintain a belief that all of the conditions for success are within your control. That doesn't stop it from being a false belief.

It also won't be so helpful if you turn out not to be successful.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by notduncansmith on Sunday May 08, 2016 @12:51PM (#11654685)
> all the conditions for success are within your control

I don't feel this is a necessary conclusion. In addition to accepting that some factors are outside your control, one must also realize that not all factors are weighted equally.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by zepto on Sunday May 08, 2016 @01:18PM (#11654771)
Why did you say it then?

You talked about choosing how to attribute success based on how 'useful' the belief is rather than how accurate.

If you are now trying to claim that luck is a factor but isn't weighted highly, this changes nothing about your desire to choose a belief that is false based on how motivating it is.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by notduncansmith on Sunday May 08, 2016 @02:00PM (#11654957)
So there are a few orthogonal discussions here (largely due to lack of focus in my original comment, I'm afraid - haven't had my Sunday morning coffee yet).

Firstly, luck is a label for a subset of all factors on the outcome of a particular endeavor: specifically the subset that we aren't consciously aware of. I wanted to refute it as a singular reason for success (being, by definition, multiple reasons).

Secondly, I think an attitude that mostly dismisses the importance of luck (by emphasizing the importance of factors you can control) can help inspire confidence, an often-necessary and entirely-insufficient factor in successful human endeavors.

Thirdly, I make no claims as to knowing the single most heavily-weighted factor for success, or even the absolute weight of any given factors. I have lightly-held opinions about relative weights of various factors, based on my own experience and things I've read on the Internet.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by zepto on Sunday May 08, 2016 @02:31PM (#11655113)
This is a good set of distinctions.

I disagree with your refutation of 'luck' in point 1:

I agree that luck is an aggregate of 'all factors beyond your control', but I do not agree that conscious awareness is sufficient to place things into your control. Therefore, luck includes all factors beyond our control, whether we are aware of them or not. It's perfectly reasonable to group these together under a category. If your argument is that aggregate categories are invalid, then you must apply the same logic to 'success'.

More importantly, I agree with your second point, but I think it's harmful. Confidence based on self-deception is known as hubris, and leads to deceiving others and thus doing harm.

There is no need to deceive oneself in order to feel confident. That simply comes from an accurate sense of one's capabilities and the situation one finds oneself in.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by notduncansmith on Sunday May 08, 2016 @09:55PM (#11657098)
I didn't mean to imply that being aware of conditions is sufficient for being in control of them. Obviously that would be wrong.

> Aggregate categories are invalid

In the search for a single factor, groups of factors seem like invalid entries.

Talking about the influence of chance on the outcome of a given set of circumstances in the universe, we're getting into free will / determinism here (and that's probably not going to be a terribly productive discussion) so I'll move on to your other point.

> I think it's harmful

I'll concede that in a vacuum you'd be right, but we're not in a vacuum. Making decisions based on factors you know about is different from consciously ignoring external factor outside your control or assuming that the factors you control are weighted more heavily. I think this conclusion of yours about my argument, though, is based on the "awareness" vs "control" confusion from above, so my overall conclusion is that we're on the same page.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by zepto on Sunday May 08, 2016 @10:39PM (#11657278)
> In the search for a single factor, groups of factors seem like invalid entries.

Grit is most certainly a group of factors.

Nobody is taking about free will or determinism. You are introducing that as a straw man.

We are not on the same page. Weights or not, you are advocating intentionally miss-attributing effects to causes that are under your control. Making reference to 'confusion' doesn't change that, and looks like another straw man.

Given that you advocate self-deception, your response seems consistent with your policy. I salute you for your consistency.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by eru on Sunday May 08, 2016 @08:23PM (#11656757)
ThomPete's comment was about learning from other people.

If you look at eg lottery winners, you could try to put getting the winning ticket into their `locus of control'. But it wouldn't tell you how to replicate that success.

Re:Is grit the true secret of success? by oceanplexian on Sunday May 08, 2016 @03:25PM (#11655358)
The problem with that viewpoint is that if you view people as fully free agents you start to attack an entire political/socioeconomic ideology that, sadly, runs our educational institutions and is closer to a religion than anything scientific. If you allow for the idea that any individual with a basic education and spirit can change the world, you unravel the idea that governments/corporations/institutions are more important than personal freedom, because we'd all be a bunch of broke, irresponsible losers without their "help".