News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:New Record Bid Set for World's Cheapest Solar, Undercutti... by beat on Wednesday May 04, 2016 @12:25PM (#11629463)
There's been some discussion of solar generation cost vs storage cost here, with the idea that any generation project is necessarily coupled to storage. But is that really the case? I can see a model where generation and storage are completely decoupled businesses.

Large, somewhat unpredictable fluctuations in the cost of generation (solar and wind) should lead to large fluctuations in price of generated electricity, down to minute-by-minute. Ideally, generators want to sell every kwh they can at peak production, even at a lower cost. With modern computer controls, this makes a delightful opportunity for an arbitrage market.

Storage providers - and this could be giants like lake-scale hydro, or dwarves like the batteries in electric cars - could buy electricity from generators when it's cheap, and sell it when it's expensive (the sun isn't shining, the wind isn't blowing, hot day spikes demand, etc). This can be fully automated. Just plug your car into the wall at night. It might decide to buy electricity, or sell electricity, depending on the price at the time. Aggregators could pool capacity across many small providers. Large storage systems could benefit from economies of scale and long-term contracts.

Create a smart grid that can support this, and let the free market solve the pricing problems for us.

Re:New Record Bid Set for World's Cheapest Solar, Undercutti... by harterrt on Wednesday May 04, 2016 @02:49PM (#11630672)
It looks like the markets are already moving in that direction.

The PJM capacity market had a big increase in demand response supply circa 2012, though not much of it was from storage. Still, new players are paying attention to these arbitrage opportunities. CAISO is already seeking out corporate partners to participate in demand reduction.

Re:New Record Bid Set for World's Cheapest Solar, Undercutti... by rhino369 on Wednesday May 04, 2016 @02:24PM (#11630468)
There is already an large arbitrage opportunity. The difference between peak and baseload pricing is pretty high.

If it was clearly economical, someone like Exelon (who owns nuke plants) would probably be doing it.

Then again, at lest several utilities claims they were going to buy Telsa powerwalls to do it. So maybe the pricing is getting to the point where it's profitable.

Re:New Record Bid Set for World's Cheapest Solar, Undercutti... by beat on Wednesday May 04, 2016 @02:36PM (#11630567)
Building something genuinely new, like caching electricity, is fraught with technical risks, financial risks, and regulatory hurdles. It's the kind of thing that can put a billion-dollar enterprise out of business. So expect a decade or more of research, small-scale experiments, political negotiation, and more, to bring storage online at any sort of scale. It's really, really hard, and really risky.

Nuclear plants, as you probably know, are almost pure base load solutions. They can't just be scaled up or slowed down arbitrarily. A volatile, arbitrage-based market efficiency would be pretty hard on the existing nuclear base, and could render a lot of plants unprofitable.

Meanwhile, the gas-fired peak load plants are tremendously expensive, because they have so much downtime and are inefficient. One or two decades ago, competing against them with storage was economically impractical. Now, it's becoming feasible. Especially once we start building gigawatts of sitting capacity anyway, in the shape of EV cars.

Re:New Record Bid Set for World's Cheapest Solar, Undercutti... by Joeri on Thursday May 05, 2016 @02:39AM (#11634388)
Right now the model for electric cars is that you charge at home overnight and run it down during the day getting to and from work. But if employers outfit their roofs with solar, you could invert the model. Charge during the day as an employment perk, and run down overnight to power your home.
Re:New Record Bid Set for World's Cheapest Solar, Undercutti... by azernik on Wednesday May 04, 2016 @05:01PM (#11631754)
I don't think I've see anyone argue that they have to be one integrated business; just that both need to exist to make the other useful.