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Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by nostrademons on Monday April 25, 2016 @05:48PM (#11567647)
There's a fourth possibility:

4. Companies increasingly occupy Extremistan, where a large portion of their financial performance comes from one-off, Black Swan events. Both the GAAP and non-GAAP numbers are true but useless; the future cash flows of the company depend upon unforeseeable events in the future.

The description that the article gives of the non-GAAP results supports this. Take, for example, a lawsuit against the company that results in a $5B judgment, payable out over many years to survivors of an environmental disaster. GAAP results include this lawsuit, non-GAAP results exclude it. Which more closely represents the future financial performance of the company, from the POV of a long-term value investor? Well, that depends whether there will be future lawsuits like this one. It depends whether the verdict will be reversed on appeal. It depends how many survivors survive.

The same goes for things like severance pay and patent lawsuits. Increasingly, it also applies to "normal" business, things like product introductions and the price of oil.

In Zero to One, Peter Thiel mentions (and decries) that an increasingly large portion of America is adopting an "indefinite" worldview, where the future cannot be known and it's futile to try to predict it. I'm not sure folks really understand the potential implications of this shift. Does "investing" have any meaning when the assumption is that returns will be dictated by large, random events? Does "meaning" have any meaning? What does it even mean to be rational, when reason is a tool we use to predict and our assumption is that events are unpredictable?

Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by dv_dt on Monday April 25, 2016 @05:56PM (#11567695)
Treating environmental disasters as 'random' events is too kind. I think in just about every major recent environmental disaster you can without too much difficulty, trace back the disaster to cost cutting measures where decisions were made to put off long term risks in favor of short term profits.

The BP oil spill, shortcuts were made in the safety of the drilling equipment emergency cutoffs, in the Los Angeles methane leak, the company had put off maintenance to try to make rate payers pay for improvements instead of out of profits to the company. The Northern California San Bruno pipe explosion - safety funds had been diverted to executive bonuses.

Smart investors (and insurers of these companies) should be digging into long term risks. It is not that we cannot predict it - we are too cheap and profit oriented to pay to mitigate it.

Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by catnaroek on Monday April 25, 2016 @08:15PM (#11568427)
If losses can be socialized (which they indeed can, if you're big enough), it's smart (albeit sociopathic) not to bother mitigating risks. It's much cheaper to PR your way out of disasters than to actually prevent them from happening.
Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by dv_dt on Monday April 25, 2016 @10:52PM (#11569110)
Though sometimes it seems like it's executives reaping short term gain while the company itself pays the long term cost at a later point after the execs have moved on.
Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by rco8786 on Monday April 25, 2016 @07:19PM (#11568181)
I'm not sure that this is mutually exclusive from random. Random refers to the timing of them, not them being unexplainable.
Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by mjevans on Monday April 25, 2016 @07:41PM (#11568273)
Maintenance is a form of insurance.
Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by Balgair on Monday April 25, 2016 @06:41PM (#11567974)
Possibility Five:

5. The companies are incontinent. The rank and file neither know what GAAP or non-GAAP really are within their limited scope. To appease bosses that themselves have bosses, etc, they don't 'cook' the books, they rely on numbers that are fudged or optimistic from 3 divisions down the ladder and across the world and then fudge them some more.

Simple Example: If you have a 90% 'truthfulness' data transmission rate things get bad quickly. Say I tell my 10 underlings to go get staplers. They then go tell their 10 underlings to go buy staplers, etc. If the transmission rate is 90%, then at the first step down I get 9 staplers, not 10. The next layer down I get 81+9 = 90 staplers from 110 folks. The next layer down I get 729+81+9 = 819 from 1,110 people. By layer 8, I am below a 50% data transmission rate to go get staplers. Granted there are now over 111,111,110 people working at the company then, but you get the idea.

Now bubble that upwards instead. Do you think that the folks there are giving a 90% truthfulness rate in what they tell their bosses? I know the situation is a lot more complicated and layers get jumped and the chain of command is not nearly so nice. Still, I think the point stands that the companies maybe are just dumb and it may just be their fate to be so.

Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by SAI_Peregrinus on Monday April 25, 2016 @08:07PM (#11568393)
As amusing as the idea of large corporations being unable to control their bladders is I think you meant "incompetent", not "incontinent". But that leads to (silly) possibility six: The companies are incontinent. In the rush to go to the bathroom they'll just put whatever numbers they can to get the financial results out the door.
Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by geofft on Monday April 25, 2016 @05:58PM (#11567710)
Yeah, the Home Depot thing sounded similar. Sure, this particular data breach has no bearing on their general financial position, and you can make a compelling argument that you should ignore it: it's a one-time weird thing, and they're not going to have data breaches every year.

... or are they? At least, will they have data breaches every few years? What's the annual cost of doing all the work needed to prevent data breaches? If it's less than the averaged-out cost of cleanup, why weren't they doing it all along? If it's more, and they're accepting data breaches as a cost of doing business, shouldn't they be reporting that cost?

And if they don't think it's going to happen again, why not?

Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by shostack on Tuesday April 26, 2016 @05:03PM (#11575607)
Presumably there's an assumption that they are "taking it seriously" and hardening their systems as a result. While it may not make them any less of a target (indeed, people now know they can be hit, and what NOT to try if they plugged this hole), they hopefully have taken steps to limit the legal, financial, brand and customer fallout.

If you think that is a valid assumption, perhaps this risk is not mitigated entirely, but it would certainly change the risk profile of such a black swan event, would it not?

Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by mathattack on Monday April 25, 2016 @06:28PM (#11567906)
The most common abuse of GAAP isn't Extreme events - it's companies excluding some kind of common event every year. This happened at a company I used to work for: for 4 years out of 5 there was a "one-time-only" exceptional cost taken out of earnings. After a while it got silly.

This isn't extreme good fortune, which would appear in both numbers.

It is futile to predict the future. GAAP is just there to try and make it easier to interpret the past, by applying some rules to compare companies against each other.

Re:Fantasy Math Is Helping Companies Spin Losses into Profits by bko on Monday April 25, 2016 @06:00PM (#11567724)
Good point.

Although, I never really was able to reconcile Thiels' criticism of an 'indefinite' worldview. It appears to me if the factors that influence things are not only the unknowns but the are unknown unknowns (i.e. you don't even know what you would need to know that will determine the fate of the company/country/whatever). In that case, how could you be anything but uncertain and just try to structure your life to benefit from convexity or as Taleb coined, anti-fragility?