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Re:The Science of Making Friends by nostrademons on Sunday April 24, 2016 @05:28PM (#11561438)
So, the answer to that is very much "yes", but you have to make trade-offs in your life that show you value it. In order to have impromptu visits that fill up the empty spaces in your life, you first need to have empty spaces in your life. That is largely incompatible with filling every moment of your life with work or career advancement.

That group of my high-school friends who are now largely janitors, retail clerks, and dropouts? They get together pretty much every weekend, usually with spur-of-the-moment plans made on Thursday night or Friday morning. My wife often just invites a friend over for Saturday brunch; occasionally I'll wake up and they're chatting downstairs. I remember one time when I was still at Google, I'd gone over to a friend's to play Starcraft, but his roommate was trying out different cellos and he had played the cello in high school, so we ended up with an impromptu cello trio in the living room. Another friend dropped by unannounced, we got the fireplace going, and when the third roommate arrived home, he was like "This is like a scene out of the 19th century."

The thing is, this is largely incompatible with spending long hours at work or doing things in your off hours (applying for jobs, going back to school, learning new programming languages) for career advancement. I haven't had a moment like that (other than ones my wife initiates) since leaving Google for a startup - I suspect my friends (or some subset of them) still do, but I'm often too busy to be worth inviting.

I think that the number of comments here suggesting a technological solution - an app, societal change, whatever - is pretty amusing. Technology is not going to matter. What does matter is making a decision that friendships and relationships are important to you, and seeking out other people who have also made that decision. And accepting the trade-offs that go with that. There are plenty of people who do live like that, but they are largely not the folks on Hacker News.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by stegosaurus on Sunday April 24, 2016 @05:44PM (#11561497)
I think you're absolutely spot on with this. I'm going through a period of change in my personal life at the moment, and I'm definitely going to keep this in mind, so thank you.

One thing I would take issue with is conflating an app with societal change, though. The latter is much much harder. I think that in developed countries we have lost our way a bit.

Work-life balance, to me, would mean that I work hard, and play hard, but that fundamentally work would fit around life. At the moment, life fits around work, for me, and for everyone I know, including those that are really quite well off. And I don't think we are individually choosing this state. Some higher power is, Moloch, I guess.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by nostrademons on Sunday April 24, 2016 @05:53PM (#11561532)
Oh, I think we absolutely are individually choosing this state. It's just that we're responding to incentives that are basically emergent behavior resulting from the choices of everyone else.

You always have the choice to ignore incentives; that's why they are incentives and not compulsion. But ignoring an incentive means that you accept not getting the benefits that are offered by that incentive. A lot of people forget that they can do this. You don't have to optimize your life to pick up every little goody that comes your way; you always have the option to say "Yes, that's nice, but I care about other stuff more."

Re:The Science of Making Friends by premasagar on Monday April 25, 2016 @05:20AM (#11563219)
I agree. There is always a choice, although the shift may be difficult or unsettling, and some people will feel freer to make a change than others. I think one huge component of this is location.

A little while back, I moved with my family from the city to the countryside (the foothills of central Portugal), where there is a growing community of migrants from western cities, living around and alongside the local villagers, who are mostly small-scale subsistence farmers. People call us the Neo Rurals.

Land and living costs are way less than where we came from, which means I can afford to work three days a week, rather than the 5 out of 7 days I was working before. I am fortunate to be able to work remotely (I'm a freelance JavaScript programmer) and to have come from an existing network (the wonderful Brighton, UK). Somehow projects arrive when I just need them (get in touch if you're looking for someone). But people here to do all sorts of work, and often grow food and generate their electricity to lower the base costs.

The door is open. Neighbours' children come by because they want to play. Many people home-educate / unschool. And we do pretty well as a community amusing ourselves, learning from and helping each other.

Uprooting is difficult, but I have never looked back. And it does come with some "hardships", but most of those are really joys.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by stegosaurus on Sunday April 24, 2016 @06:15PM (#11561614)
There's a very steep reward curve, though. It's not like, a 10% incentive. It's hundreds of percentage points.

Very rough numbers here:

Generic person might be able to earn $50K working 40 hour weeks in their most optimal career (one that uses their skills).

Same person might also be able to earn $25K working 20 hour weeks doing a similar thing.

They could also earn minimum wage with a rota that isn't really under their control much.

But the real 'work-life balance' option, the one in which the tables are turned and someone decides to 'schedule' work for 8pm on a Saturday or whatever because it's free in the diary?

As far as I can tell this just sort of doesn't exist. I mean you could do piecemeal bits and bobs for neighbours, maybe. But a sustainable source of money sufficient to eat and heat, pay for a roof?

An example would be a 24 hour supermarket. The employees could bid to fill slots and the rate they'd charge to cover periods. But it's not set up that way because the capital owners hold all the cards and it'd be less optimal for them. What you get instead, is 'come to work 6pm thursday or you are fired, kthx'.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by notduncansmith on Sunday April 24, 2016 @09:25PM (#11562111)
Doesn't basic income take care of that? The idea being that once companies have to compete with the entire world (as opposed to a few other companies) for your time and attention, flexible hours (and many other changes to the relationship between employees and companies) will become the default.
Re:The Science of Making Friends by stegosaurus on Monday April 25, 2016 @09:51AM (#11564151)
I hope so.

I try to live in that way, and I try to encourage those around me to live in that way (refusing imbalanced employment conditions). I think if enough people did, we could start to help each other, rather than relying on capital and private property so much.

Basic income is one sort of stepping stone towards that. Ultimately I think the ideal is people actually having real choices, not the huge bias we have towards salaried employment at the moment.

If life were an MMO, then salaried employment would be the cookie cutter build, hourly work would be the odd hybrid, and otherwise you've decided to not bother with your talent tree, and you're just gimping yourself. Can we tweak the rules of the game a bit, or are they just emergent?

Re:The Science of Making Friends by notduncansmith on Monday April 25, 2016 @12:20PM (#11565278)
We totally can change the rules. We made them up. Most modern modern value systems are rooted in the scarcity mindset - the idea that there isn't enough (of whatever) to go around. The people that created those systems weren't bad, their ideas are just outdated. Now that technology has changed the calculus, and there IS enough to go around, it's just a matter of overcoming the momentum of the old value systems. You're right, basic income is a bridge measure. It demonstrates abundance for the skeptics, and shows us what pretty much full autonomy for every member of a society could look like. I'm not sure what comes after that, but if you've read Manna, the Australia Project as described at the end seems to have a lot of desirable qualities. It's a short read, and well worth reading (and has been on HN a few times, I think). Obviously we're not quite there, but it's not hard to envision if enough smart people were free to work on the various elements of that future, unrestricted by manufactured pressure to pursue more immediately-profitable endeavors.
Re:The Science of Making Friends by morgante on Monday April 25, 2016 @03:46AM (#11562978)
> What does matter is making a decision that friendships and relationships are important to you, and seeking out other people who have also made that decision.

That is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

I have plenty of time to make friends, but wouldn't be able to make any. Especially as you get older, it gets nearly impossible to approach people. At this point I'm down to a single nearby friend.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by eric-hu on Monday April 25, 2016 @08:21AM (#11563736)
If I may make a suggestion, try exploring social hobbies and friends will come. I did meetups for a while and met some cool programmers. After a while, I didn't want to talk software as much in my free time, but one guy invited me out to go swing dancing.

I now work online remotely in Asia and visit different cities to swing dance. Within 2 two weeks trips, I made some good freshman friends in Shanghai and Hong Kong. We still talk online from time to time about the next time we'll meet up.

I am also looking to temper my expectations, as the article suggests. I tried out a couple other styles of dancing and met freshman friends in those scenes. I remember wanting to fit in so much with each new group, and I still feel it with swing dancing friends sometimes. Over time, opportunities to deepen friendships arise. There's a lot that's out of my control.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by morgante on Monday April 25, 2016 @08:30AM (#11563767)
> If I may make a suggestion, try exploring social hobbies and friends will come. I did meetups for a while and met some cool programmers.

I've tried going to meetups, but it doesn't seem like anyone is interested in being social. Everyone seems to be looking to network or advance professionally somehow.

I never get the vibe that anyone would want to hang out with me. Maybe I'm just not friendly.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by Kurtz79 on Monday April 25, 2016 @09:59AM (#11564201)
Maybe you should choose meetups for those of your hobbies that are not directly related to your career.

I mean, it is likely that if you are a programmer you'll end up talking about work in a programming or startup meetup.

It will be much harder if it's about boardgames or ultimate frisbee.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by eric-hu on Monday April 25, 2016 @09:11AM (#11563930)
Yes, I've met many people who "just want to network." Based on past evidence, less than five percent of the people I met from meetups became longer lasting friends. (Those are probably great odds when compared to my friendship rates in school and college).

I remember going home from some meetups feeling the night was a bust. In retrospect, I would have been less disappointed if I thought of it like dating or job hunting. My goal isn't a 100% match rate. My goal is to find matches that leave me happy.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by morgante on Monday April 25, 2016 @09:26AM (#11563989)
Maybe I'm doing it wrong then. I'm not aiming for a 100% match rate—I'd be happy with a 1% match rate.

For an entire year, I probably went to a meetup every other week. In that whole time I didn't make a single new friend.

Re:The Science of Making Friends by eric-hu on Monday April 25, 2016 @10:55AM (#11564557)
Maybe they just weren't the right ones for you. I also tried many different meet ups before finding the one that stuck with me for over years.

There's no shame in trying that meet up out for a year. I think that's the crux of "don't expect too much too soon." Sounds like it's time to try out another tech meet up, another hobby meet up, or anything else that has potential.