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Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by EliRivers on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @07:32AM (#11533608)
While I don't disagree with the general thrust of your argument, as an aside, the lack of men in nursing roles (and teaching, especially to younger children) is seen as a problem and when you spend time in the nursing or teaching community it comes up a lot. Campaigns to attract more men into these professions have been running for a long time.

While I'm here, speaking as a townie, I don't see any complexity in the fox hunting issue. If it's vermin that needs to be controlled, kill it. Fine. But to spend a day getting pleasure out of chasing it down with a pack of dogs? That's not the same question at all.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by vilda on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @08:24AM (#11533830)
While it is seen as a problem, the point is that it's not taken seriously enough than the opposite imbalance.

There are way worse examples:

Male students are getting a whole one level worse marks than female students with the same knowledge [1] (Czech).

Theoretically, each parent has an equal right to the custody of the child when they separate. In reality, with a whooping 85-90% the custody is resolved according to female preference [2]: "It is a very common scenario in divorce in England that the house is transferred into the wife's sole name, the children live with the wife and the husband pays maintenance for the children..."

Males are 400-600% more likely to be attacked than females, while it is females safety that is discussed way more.

The vector of home violence is woman against child and not man against woman as often believed: "The DHHS data shows that of children abused by one parent between 2001 and 2006, 70.6% were abused by their mothers, whereas only 29.4% were abused by their fathers."

Even worse, when child is killed: "And of children who died at the hands of one parent between 2001 and 2006, 70.8% were killed by their mothers, whereas only 29.2% were killed by their fathers."

[1] https://www.scio.cz/download/vektor/Vektor_prezentace.ppt

[2] http://www.terry.co.uk/men_div.html

[3] http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm06/cm06.pdf

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by jacobolus on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @09:03AM (#11534020)
I don’t know enough about Czech grades to comment, and I generally agree with you about the common unfairness of custody disputes, but the rest of your claims seem a bit shaky.

Your point #2 (along with other reasons for a child to more commonly live with a single mother, e.g. the father isn’t known, is in prison, or runs off) partly explains your points #4 and #5. From the document you cite, 27% of abuse victims were living with a single mother and another 5% were living with their mother and another adult, while only 3% were living with a single father. If you only look at children living with both parents, it looks like either parent could be the abuser with approximately equal likelihood. Looking at the source document, your claim #5 seems to be a complete misinterpretation of the data, but in any event, the largest cause of fatalities is “neglect”, and most fatalities were in children under the age of 3.

More generally, I suspect a significant proportion of children spend substantially more time with their mothers than their fathers, e.g. because fathers are more likely to work, tend to work longer hours when both parents are working, and do much less housework and childcare. I suspect these disparities are even more prevalent if you restrict your examination to households where child abuse occurs.

If you want to understand child abuse by parents, you should try to gather concrete data about the family structure and other context. Aggregate statistics about which parent is more often the aggressor can be misleading without considering those other factors (most relevantly here, who the primary caregiver is).

Interpreting this document to imply that children are at much greater danger from women than men is disingenuous, or sloppy at best.

Similarly for your point #3. What is the context for the “attacks” you are talking about? Gang violence? Bar fights? School bullying? Muggings in dark alleys late at night? You don’t cite a source, so it’s not clear quite what you’re referring to.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by vilda on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @05:15PM (#11537813)
I showed only few examples. While we may discuss individual points, I believe the whole imbalance has been clearly shown.

By arguing that the level of abuse by man and woman is roughly the same you are actually enforcing the point, not making is weaker. And if we are looking at the whole picture, presenting totals makes complete sense. We don't need detailed statistics to point the imbalance. There's no question that the type of abuse differs among men and women.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by snowwrestler on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @12:25PM (#11535548)
You've got to get over the idea that there is some sort of fair level at which all these problems should be talked about.

For one thing, unless you've done some rigorous surveying of the total communications landscape, your perception of how seriously everyone is taking these imbalances is going to be limited by what you happen to see (intentional or accidental filtering), and what you remember (confirmation bias).

For another thing, the solutions are not mutually dependent--some people can try to get more women into STEM jobs without hurting the efforts of other people who are trying to get more men into nursing jobs. We don't need to achieve some fair and balanced level of discourse before we start actually fixing things.

Finally, imbalances are not themselves a problem, they are a symptom. In STEM jobs, the big problem is not there are too few women, it is that the culture of many places is abusive and off-putting to women. That's what needs to be solved. Gender imbalance is just a proxy that's easier to measure.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by Majestic121 on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @07:53AM (#11533687)
"While I'm here, speaking as a townie, I don't see any complexity in the fox hunting issue."

Well, that's the point the grandparent comment was making. The fact that there is multiple sides on this issue shows that it is not as black and white as you seem to see it.

The people hunting foxes and badger are not devils made of pure evil, so there must be a reason why they are doing it.

But the actual debate about hunting foxes does not matter here, the point is : the world is not as black and white as people see it.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by EliRivers on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @01:54PM (#11536314)
Oh gosh no, nobody is pure evil. Many people who take part in lynchings, for example, go home to show tenderness to their spouse and children. Not being pure evil doesn't make it ok.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by belorn on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @10:41AM (#11534720)
Recently I read a report done by the national agency for higher education in Sweden, on order by the government, to study why there are so few male teachers. As part of the study, a poll was sent to each of the teaching districts in Sweden with question like "what strategies do the district have to increase the ratio of male student for the teaching profession." Out of 19, only 3 responded that they had any strategy at all to increase the ratio of male students, and out of the remaining 16, only 6 had some strategy regarding gender equality at all. One university simply replied by saying "in order to have a strategy, we first need to figure out why there is so few men who want to become teachers. More research needed.".

If it comes up often in the teaching community, its not something which much money is being directed to, projected being run, and time being spent on. There is no political pressure to apply affirmative action, no ear marked funds in the budget, and no policy changes in order to change the dominated female culture that the teaching profession has (The report attribute the culture as a major cause for male teacher having significant higher exit rate both as student but also after they have worked a few years).

As for campaigns "running for a long time", the report says the exact opposite. It explicitly say there hasn't been any significant effort to bring male student to female dominated professions, while the opposite has existed for about 50 years. It suggest that university programs should look at the past and current efforts to bring female students to STEM subject and use it as a guide in order to create programs for gender equality which also include male students.

Personally, I think the recent decided policy by Norway is a good step in the right direction. A simple policy that dictate that minority students, that is when the gender ration is less than 20%-80%, will receive some benefits/incentives to counter gender discrimination.

(The report is 2009:7 R, by the Swedish national agency for higher education)

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by tremon on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @11:41AM (#11535237)
Personally, I think the recent decided policy by Norway is a good step in the right direction. A simple policy that dictate that minority students, that is when the gender ratio is less than 20%-80%, will receive some benefits/incentives to counter gender discrimination.

I think this is great idea. It is simple to execute and does not attempt to prescribe an "optimal ratio". Of course, there's always room for debate, like whether it should only be applied to gender minorities, but that's simple enough to tweak.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by jules on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @07:58AM (#11533705)
Now I'm wondering whether you are a vegetarian, or whether you pay others to kill animals for a few minutes of eating pleasure.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by DougWebb on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @08:49AM (#11533957)
I'm not a vegetarian, and I gladly pay others to kill animals for me to eat. But I do not pay for the animals to be tortured in the process; I want them killed as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Cats injure, torture, and play with their prey before killing it. Humans should not do that.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by Jtsummers on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @09:31AM (#11534199)
Not that they're always successful, but hunters also want animals killed as quickly as possible (not necessarily painlessly, but are our methods of slaughtering really that painless? Do we give them a nice general anesthetic before bashing in their brains or decapitating them?). Anything but a good clean shot is considered, depending on the hunter, cruel, wasteful, poor form, etc. Most of the people I know who hunt aren't sports hunters. They hunt deer (because there's an abundance in the area, more than were here before the US was founded), primarily for food. A couple decent-sized deer, properly butchered, will last quite a while for them. If they hunt anything beyond what they need, it's to give to family/friends who won't or can't hunt.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by 7Z7 on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @10:26AM (#11534592)
There is a great difference between deer hunting and fox hunting, don't confuse the two. In fox hunting there is no "good clean shot".
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by nmrm2 on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @10:29AM (#11534610)
FYI, the author's original comment was about fox hunting, which is decidedly different from most forms of hunting popular in the US.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by tamana on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @11:01PM (#11539356)
Where do you get your ethically produced meat from?
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by jules on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @08:57AM (#11533993)
Why would hunting be torture, but slaughtering not?
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by DougWebb on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @09:36AM (#11534240)
Fox hunting, where the fox is chased around by dogs for a long time before it is finally killed, is torture. Hunting with a rifle, where you sneak up on an animal and kill it before it even knows it's being hunted, is not. I'd say bow hunting is a grey area; if you have to track the bleeding animal down while it is slowly bleeding out, that's cruel. But if you're hunting for survival and a bow is all you have, or if you're training for that situation (and it's realistic that you might be in that situation) then it's ok.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by jules on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @11:13AM (#11534993)
If you compare the worst case scenario for hunting (fox hunting) with the best case scenario for slaughter, but often the slaughter isn't fun either. Many animals are very distressed on their way to the slaughter. Even more importantly, the lives they had before that point were probably much worse than the lives of the wild foxes. Farming animals for meat also happens on a scale that is absolutely incomparable to fox hunting. More animals are slaughtered every day than the number of foxes that were hunted in the entire history of humankind.

Secondly, you say that hunting is permissible if you're hunting for survival. Why doesn't the same apply for slaughter? You don't need to eat farmed animals for survival.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by PeterisP on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @01:58PM (#11536335)
I'm reading the parent post not as "you say that hunting is permissible if you're hunting for survival" but instead as a claim that this cruelty is justified if and only if you're hunting for survival.

The same would apply for slaughter - if it would be a survival matter, then any methods would be permissible (i.e. some of the more cruel traditional approaches) but since it is not, it should be mandatory to use only the less painful approaches to slaughter.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by DougWebb on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @02:15PM (#11536487)
I'm comparing "hunting for sport" against "hunting for food", and I'm comparing "hunting for food in a cruel way for the challenge" against "hunting for food in a cruel way out of necessity."

I don't think it's ok to torture a fox because it had a nice life before the torture started.

I don't think it's ok to torture a fox because we kill a lot more cows than foxes.

I don't think it's ok to torture animals that we raise for slaughter. I pay more for organic grass-fed cattle, free-range chicken and eggs, etc, in the hopes that the animals that provide my food were treated well while they were alive.

As I said at the start, I'm not a vegetarian. I'm definitely a part of the animal food chain, so I'm ok with the killing of animals further down the chain for me to eat, and I avoid the animals further up the chain so that I don't get eaten. (I wouldn't blame them if they got me, though.) What I object to is killing in a way that causes more suffering than it has to.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by jules on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @04:13PM (#11537369)
If you object to inflicting more suffering than you have to, how do you justify not being a vegetarian? In the end this is a trade of a bit of pleasure for you and quite a bit of suffering for the animal. Fox hunting, it seems to me, is precisely the same sort of trade. You could argue that the pleasure you get from eating meat is worth the suffering, but the pleasure the hunters get from fox hunting is not worth the suffering, but it is not clear to me how you would justify such a claim. Firstly, it seems to me not impossible that a hunter derives more pleasure from a hunting trip than from eating a piece of chicken. Secondly, it seems to me not impossible that the total amount of suffering inflicted on a chicken during its farm lifetime including slaughter is greater than the total amount of suffering inflicted on a fox during the hunt, particularly since free range isn't all it's made out to be. Thirdly, even if it were the case that fox hunting is a worse trade than meat eating, it's still unclear why it couldn't be the case that both are still worth it, or neither is worth it.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by DougWebb on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @05:32PM (#11537899)
Easy: I have to eat meat, and I'm not a reductionist.

I don't eat meat for pleasure, particularly, and certainly not as recreation. Fox hunting is purely recreation.

Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by tamana on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @11:03PM (#11539366)
I agree. What I want to to is ethical because I need to do it. What other people is unethical because I don't need it.
Re:How Americans Became So Sensitive to Harm by jules on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @09:19PM (#11539004)
Why do you have to eat meat?