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Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by greggman on Monday April 18, 2016 @11:22PM (#11524673)
What about a flywheel? Probably a net negative. What about a motor with no battery. You pedal to power it? Just wondering what the limit of "human powered" is
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by paulmd on Monday April 18, 2016 @11:46PM (#11524742)
A clutched flywheel would probably be an advantage in many kinds of terrain. Imagine being able to spin up the flywheel from pedalling or gravity (geared) while going downhill, and then when you hit an uphill section you kick in the gear and pedal easy. It would essentially turn most tracks into "flat" tracks.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by nradov on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @12:26AM (#11524874)
No the extra weight of a flywheel plus motor/generator would far outweigh any small advantage. The energy density is just too low for any flywheel small enough to fit on a bike. And the gyroscopic effects would mess with handling.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by lmm on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @04:25AM (#11525595)
Citation? Flywheels can be very efficient especially with modern engineering. And it could be oriented so that the gyroscopic effects were stabilizing or destabilizing as desired, plus I think in any case riders would adapt quickly - I ride a "twitchy" bike with no front fork sometimes, and my old professor built a bike with a counter-rotating flywheel to disprove the myth that cyclists rely on gyroscopic effects to stabilize them.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by nradov on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @01:30PM (#11528599)
What kind of citation are you looking for? This is just common engineering knowledge. The airtight safety housing alone would be way too heavy for bike racing. You can't have a flywheel spinning at zillion rpm sitting out in the open because it could kill someone in a crash. Plus the flywheel would need to be in a near vacuum to avoid air drag.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by hardlianotion on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @05:22AM (#11525794)
That's really interesting about the gyroscopic effects myth, as it is one I strongly believe! Is there some documentation of the bike or some analysis of this I can read?
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by wutbrodo on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:58AM (#11526088)
It's not a myth that gyroscopic effects contribute to stabilization, but rather that it explains the stabilization fully. It's usually phrased as "scientists still don't understand how bikes work [in terms of their stability]", which is pretty amazing if you think about it.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by fanf2 on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @02:59AM (#11532718)
Actually, since about 5 years ago bicycle stability is pretty well understood: http://bicycle.tudelft.nl/stablebicycle/
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by lmm on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:50AM (#11526072)
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by hardlianotion on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @06:54AM (#11526080)
Thanks!
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by wiredfool on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @08:32AM (#11526454)
Prof Ruina? I loved his class.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by lmm on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:03AM (#11526619)
No, Dr Hunt (see link in cousin). I actually only had him as a tutor but didn't want to complicate things.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by wiredfool on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @09:10AM (#11526662)
Ah. I see that now. I had Ruina for Dynamics, and talked a bunch with Jim Papadopoulos. Fun Times.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by jacquesm on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @02:18AM (#11525191)
Bikes already have two really large flywheels.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by usrusr on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @03:33AM (#11525414)
And people spend a lot of money to make them store just a tiny little less energy.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by wycx on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @07:56AM (#11526310)
Except when they are chasing the hour record. Ondrej Sosenka ran 3.2 kg wheels in his 2005 hour record precisely for the flywheel effect.
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by usrusr on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @11:46AM (#11527762)
Every tiny acceleration derived from a pedal stroke has to be transferred from bike to rider by hands and back. It's not "work" in the physical sense if you look at the bike as your frame of reference, but it requires biological effort nonetheless. As long as you don't need to brake, more storage in the wheels is better. This effect would be strongest in a climb, but there you certainly only want heavy wheels if you can compensate with a lighter frame or parts (and if the inevitable braking on the subsequent descent does not call for less storage).

But there's a catch: even on a track, lighter wheels will _feel_ faster, because you get stronger feedback from oscillations I'm your pedal stroke.

Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by nradov on Wednesday April 20, 2016 @04:26PM (#11537468)
No matter how heavy you made the bike wheels, any kinetic energy stored in them would be used up in the first few meters of a steep hill on any road course. Then you have to drag those heavy weights up the hill. So no, more storage in the wheels isn't better (outside of a totally flat track).
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by Ensorceled on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @03:27AM (#11525391)
They don't spin fast enough nor with enough mass to help you climb a hill ...
Re:Thermal camera footage allegedly shows pro cyclists using... by grahamburger on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @12:02AM (#11524794)
Or a motor + battery but the battery has to start discharged. Basically the same as the flywheel I guess, except you have a little more control over when the energy you store gets used.