News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by Houshalter on Saturday April 16, 2016 @04:23PM (#11512112)
Man "entitlement" is such a weird word, and such a weird way to frame the issue. There are property owners who would like to build on their own property, not hurting anyone. And being told they're not allowed to because rich people like the aesthetic. There's poor people being priced out of their own city because of this. Who's entitled?

And this is hardly the first time a US city has experienced growth.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by brbsix on Saturday April 16, 2016 @07:10PM (#11512723)
You'd expect property owners to be entitled to build on their titled property, yet somehow this has turned into a pejorative.

It reminds me of people arguing for higher taxes accusing others of being selfish. Yes, it's completely selfish that someone would like to keep the money they've earned and yet completely selfless that you feel you have a right to it.

Down and down we go into opposite land.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by aninhumer on Saturday April 16, 2016 @10:42PM (#11513260)
> Yes, it's completely selfish that someone would like to keep the money they've earned

Well yeah. The very concept of ownership is inherently selfish. It means you want there to be a particular set of resources you get to use, and no one else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness.

Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lose hard.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by brbsix on Sunday April 17, 2016 @12:04PM (#11514999)
Taken to this extreme (wherein private property is selfish), human life is selfish. In living, you consume resources that no one else can use. As such, arguing that reallocation of your life (e.g. your death or enslavement) is selfish would be ridiculous.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by thaumasiotes on Sunday April 17, 2016 @02:46AM (#11513752)
> Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lose hard.

I think you missed the other half of the sentence:

> and yet completely selfless that you feel you have a right to [the money someone else earned]

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by aninhumer on Sunday April 17, 2016 @06:27AM (#11514070)
The other half of the sentence only makes sense within a property system. My point is that the very act of saying "That's mine, you can't have it" is already incredibly selfish.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by WalterBright on Sunday April 17, 2016 @02:33AM (#11513727)
How is it not equally selfish for someone to claim they are entitled to other peoples' money?
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by rbanffy on Sunday April 17, 2016 @03:56AM (#11513842)
Not at all because it's not "I am entitled to your money" but "everyone's entitled to everyone's money".
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by freyr on Sunday April 17, 2016 @03:20AM (#11513797)
Because it's more selfish?
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by aninhumer on Sunday April 17, 2016 @06:20AM (#11514059)
Until you have a property system there is no "other people's" stuff.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by Houshalter on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:27AM (#11514297)
Well we do have a property system so what are you trying to say?
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by aninhumer on Sunday April 17, 2016 @09:33AM (#11514437)
That expecting there to be "your stuff" is already inherently selfish, so trying to argue that particular reallocations of "your stuff" are selfish is kind of ridiculous.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by Houshalter on Sunday April 17, 2016 @01:31PM (#11515365)
And now we are back where we started, with why is it selfish for me to claim it, but not you? Without property rights, no one has any right to anything and the world would be anarchy.

There is nothing selfish about property rights. If you make something, and want to use it, that's not selfish. If someone else comes and demands you give it to them instead, that is selfish.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by hitekker on Saturday April 16, 2016 @08:27PM (#11512944)
"entitlements" as used as a framing for this issue boils down essentially to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

Out of many fallacies, this one is among the top 5 I consider most insidious. By taking advantage of our collective desire for compromise, the un-empathetic, even the sociopathic, can appear reasonable, or at least as reasonable as the side they're vilifying. "No, brah, both sides are wrong! Let's get to that middle ground, which just so happens to allow me to trample upon other human beings!"

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by freyr on Sunday April 17, 2016 @03:18AM (#11513796)
If someone pays $X million for a house in San Francisco with a view, you can assume it will hurt when an affordable-living highrise is constructed next door that blocks their view.

Now, perhaps the happiness of the people who live in that highrise and get a spectacular view at a government-mandated affordable price outweighs the pain of the individual who paid market price. But somebody got hurt.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by Houshalter on Sunday April 17, 2016 @01:38PM (#11515400)
I argued below that "ownership of a view" is a dubious claim. Taken too far and it amounts to no one being allowed to build anything, anywhere. Which sadly has become the norm in most places, see NIMBYism.

I'd be willing to consider a compromise where developers compensate neighbors for whatever market value is lost from their construction. That seems fair. But even that assumes that the owners had a "right" to the view to begin with, or some kind of ownership over it. Which seems kind of absurd.

It also assumes that new development necessarily hurts property values, which isn't true either. Development usually increases the value.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by freyr on Saturday April 16, 2016 @04:46PM (#11512191)
Yes, it's somewhat a matter of perspective.

Although I'd point out that it's not just rich people who appreciate San Francisco's aesthetic.

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by erikpukinskis on Saturday April 16, 2016 @06:52PM (#11512665)
Have you met poor people who care about vertical zoning laws in San Francisco or are you just assuming they exist and speaking for them?
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by freyr on Sunday April 17, 2016 @02:56AM (#11513760)
I appreciate San Francisco's aesthetic, and I'm not rich. Many of my friends appreciate San Francisco's aesthetic, and they're not rich. Many tourists come to San Francisco every day to admire the city's aesthetic. I don't think you read my statement very well.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by dasil003 on Saturday April 16, 2016 @07:58PM (#11512874)
Are you suggesting there's no gray area between rich and poor?
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by PKop on Saturday April 16, 2016 @05:00PM (#11512230)
But of course it's rich people who are prioritizing it above affordable housing.
Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by whyenot on Sunday April 17, 2016 @01:28AM (#11513602)
> There are property owners who would like to build on their own property, not hurting anyone.

If they are impairing their neighbors' views, it seem pretty obvious they are actually hurting someone. San Franacisco has already experienced the extreme: Charles Crocker's spite fence on Nob Hill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spite_fence#San_Francisco

Re:In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build by Houshalter on Sunday April 17, 2016 @08:34AM (#11514312)
"Ownership of a view" is a pretty dubious argument. It amounts to no being allowed to construct anything anywhere because it will always change someone's view. A taller building is not the same as a spite fence, at all.