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Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Monday April 11, 2016 @06:04PM (#11475526)
> They were always fighting among themselves, and no one could settle among them until there was peace and safety.

Sounds exactly like Europe for the last six thousand years.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Monday April 11, 2016 @06:30PM (#11475677)
Right, plus that part where Europeans have again and again revolutionized the modern world. But yeah otherwise exactly the same...
Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:30PM (#11477042)
Africa has more than its fair share of important historical achievements, and given time to recover from the mess that colonial influence has caused, it may likely contribute a whole lot more.

You really need to read Guns, Germs and Steel to realize how handicapped Africa has been historically speaking. Going forward they're very well situated. The economic power of sub-saharan Africa could very well eclipse Europe if it has a chance to develop.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @12:13AM (#11477207)
Going forward they're very well situated. The economic power of sub-saharan Africa could very well eclipse Europe if it has a chance to develop.

And that's why you have the vast majority of your money invested there, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M&t=72m45s

http://i.imgur.com/BO5YwQl.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuNYOwKlDIE

Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @12:23AM (#11477249)
Africa has more than its fair share of important historical achievements

Really? More than it's fair share?

What are we basing the proportions of 'fair share' on? Land size? Population size?

Would care to name just one or two of these important achievements?

But if you can't, don't worry. We all know what you said is a ridiculous empty statement.

Another thing to consider, all peoples and species are free to exist without need of 'important historical achievements.' Nobody needs to justify their existence. But we don't need to pretend things that aren't true.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @05:28AM (#11478192)
> But we don't need to pretend things that aren't true.

Apparently you do. I'm not sure why you need to celebrate Europe simply because it achieved industrialization before Africa did. Cultures rise and fall.

Sub-Saharan Africa alone has tremendous mineral and fossil fuel wealth, huge amounts of land ranging from desert to jungle, and a large population. With those ingredients it's only inevitable something comes of it. It's a messy process of industrializing, Europe should serve as an example of how painful that transition can be, but it's happening.

China is flooding money into Africa to be the first in line for these resources and as a supplier to that exploding economy. Even if not every single project of theirs is successful, which by the way just adds to the list of wildly unsuccessful colonial projects over the last two centuries, they'll eventually get what they want.

If you're going to judge Africa by the last hundred years of post-colonial rule, ignorant to its history, we might as well judge Europe by the Dark Ages when Spain and France were being colonized by Africans.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by ilitirit on Monday April 11, 2016 @05:20PM (#11475198)
That's a rubbish statement that you quoted. Some tribes often fought with each other, others didn't (eg. who were the Khoi-san people at war with?). And often, the ones who did fight amongst each other lost more in terms of lives and resources to colonizers than anything else. And not just because of fighting. Colonizers also brought with them diseases like smallpox etc that decimated native populations.
Re:People of Africa (1921) by bpodgursky on Monday April 11, 2016 @06:00PM (#11475494)
The Khoi-san were being actively displaced by the Bantu migration down the east coast of Africa, contemporary with the European colonies in South Africa.
Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Monday April 11, 2016 @05:42PM (#11475372)
So you're saying colonialism was a net negative for the African people because of small pox? And therefore should never have occurred? I disagree, and say it was a net positive for the African people.

If it had never occurred and Africans never learned to read or write, and gained the help of western science and medicine, then the descendants of those affected by small pox would be succumbing to preventable maladies far more than they are today. Which would total a far greater poor health and suffering tally, far beyond the initial small pox problem or what have you.

But then again, maybe you're right that the world be better off if Africa had just been left entirely alone, an island unto itself.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by GFK_of_xmaspast on Monday April 11, 2016 @05:59PM (#11475489)
> If it had never occurred and Africans never learned to read or write

Do you have any familiarity with the history of Africa pre-colonization, because this is a little bit counterfactual.

"Timbuktu's rapid economic growth in the 13th and 14th centuries drew many scholars from nearby Walata (today in Mauretania),[72] leading up to the city's golden age in the 15th and 16th centuries that proved fertile ground for scholarship of religions, arts and sciences. An active trade in books between Timbuktu and other parts of the Islamic world and emperor Askia Mohammed's strong support led to the writing of thousands of manuscripts.[73]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu#Centre_of_learning

See also:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_I_of_Mali

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe

Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Monday April 11, 2016 @06:17PM (#11475607)
Timbuktu/Mali is on the outskirts of the Arab/Islamic world. Not the area the text referenced as lacking literacy.

What does the Great Zimbabwe link have to do with literacy? Other than lack of any evidence for.

Gertrude Caton-Thompson recognised that the builders were indigenous Africans, but she characterised the site as the "product of an infantile mind" built by a subjugated society.

Archaeologists generally agree that the builders probably spoke one of the Shona languages

The writing system for Shona is Latin Script, meaning it was introduced at a much later date.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Monday April 11, 2016 @06:10PM (#11475564)
I'm sure those living in Timbuktu were writing books about how the English living in London at the time were barbarians in capable of learning to read or write.

The only people that think Africa was devoid of culture or civilization are those that look only at the debris that was left after the colonial powers beat everyone down into submission and stripped everything bare.

Reading about what the colonial powers did is just plain depressing. Being ignorant of this past and blaming the victims is also a pretty severe injustice.

http://www.siliconafrica.com/terra-nullius/

Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Monday April 11, 2016 @07:10PM (#11475871)
I'm sure those living in Timbuktu were writing books about how the English living in London at the time were barbarians in capable of learning to read or write.

You're sure about that, even though there is zero evidence whatsoever for it?

Also, nowhere in this discussion has anyone said that anybody was incapable of learning to read or write. But rather that this was a skill imparted to the Africans by the Europeans.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:24PM (#11477023)
> But rather that this was a skill imparted to the Africans by the Europeans.

Well, wow. Nope. Africans have been reading and writing before there even was such a thing as Europe. They had Aramaic and Arabic by way of Egypt and Ethiopia alone.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Monday April 11, 2016 @06:05PM (#11475535)
False dichotomy. There's degrees of engagement between oppressive colonization and complete indifference.
Re:People of Africa (1921) by cb18 on Monday April 11, 2016 @07:03PM (#11475847)
The point is that it wasn't just blatant oppression, for oppression's sake. As people like to pretend because it better serves their victimhood narrative.

Neither were Europeans acting in a purely altruistic manner of course, nobody ever does. The Africans had a choice in matters as well, they chose to cooperate for the most part because they felt that was in their best interest. People always like to take the agency away from whoever's 'victim' story they are telling. It's demeaning.

Two entities interacting, pursuing their own interests, resulting in mutual benefit. That's called symbiotic.

Sure you can drill down and find good and bad, you can't have one without the other. What's the balance between the two?

The main point and the absurdity of these discussions is that people so often try to say that the descendants of the colonizers are somehow to blame for the present state of the descendants of the colonized, whatever that may be, when it is crystal clear that without the European intervention the descendants of the colonized would be in a far worse state today.

Re:People of Africa (1921) by stuxnet79 on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @09:23AM (#11479290)
> The Africans had a choice in matters as well, they chose to cooperate for the most part because they felt that was in their best interest. People always like to take the agency away from whoever's 'victim' story they are telling. It's demeaning.

Do you even know anything about European intervention / influence in Africa? Europeans at first came as explorers, missionaries, enslavers and then as armed soldiers. At what point in the last 2 does choice figure?

The only part of history that fits your blissfully idealistic and ignorant narrative is European activities in East Asia / particularly Japan. Japan had a healthy amount of contact with Europeans early on in the Age of Exploration but they kicked them all out (British, Dutch, Spanish, ... etc) convinced that they were up to no good and it was only when Commodore Perry breached Japan's defenses in the mid 19th century that Japan again opened itself up to the west. But even this renewed contact was markedly different as America was under the sway of the Monroe Doctrine & was not interested in making Japan an extension of America. In Africa however, in the late 19th / early 20th century land was being grabbed en masse and native people's rights trampled as a result of European foreign policy which was influenced strongly by the stipulations spelled out in the "Berlin Conference" (1884).

Re:People of Africa (1921) by astrodust on Monday April 11, 2016 @11:33PM (#11477052)
You have such a ridiculously warped view of history it's both shocking and hilarious simultaneously. I'm sure your views on slavery are similarly enlightening.

Don't look at me trying to blame anyone for anything. I'm simply refusing to ignore historical fact. As far as I'm concerned what's done is done, we can move on, that the more we try and pin blame the more of a mess we'll end up in.

White-washing history and pretending it resulted in "mutual benefit" is absolutely monstrous, though. The colonial powers differed in their attitudes from country to country, from era to era, but on the whole they were belligerent, greedy, and utterly indifferent to the people they were subjugating.

If there's one reason why it's hard to paint a picture of how brutal colonial powers treated the people it's because they often erased the other side of the story. We're only just beginning to put together the pieces of the true story of what happened.