Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow...
by AnimalMuppet on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:32PM
(#11472773)
I'll give you an argument that PG's theory (at least as stated) cannot be correct.
PG says that Lisp is at the top of the power curve, looking down at all other languages. And Lisp practitioners are sure they're looking down, and they'll tell you why. "How can you get anything done in Haskell? It doesn't even have macros."
But Haskell programmers are sure that they're at the top of the power curve, and that when they look at other languages (including Lisp!) that they're looking down. And they know why they're looking down. "How can you get anything done in Lisp? It doesn't even have a decent type system!"
I have in fact heard almost the exact argument of PG's essay before, from proponents of a heavyweight CASE tool.
This fact - that proponents of two languages are both sure that they're looking down when they look at the other language - tells us that something is very wrong with PG's idea. The problem is the idea that all languages can be ranked on a one-dimensional axis labeled "power".
To see what's wrong with this idea, look at hardware. We know what "power" means there - it's MIPS. Until you think a bit more. Then you realize "Well, we've got that floating-point code, so we have think about FLOPS, too. And there's that one data set that won't fit into cache, so we need to worry about memory bandwidth... unless we can trade off some clock speed for cache size..." Suddenly "power" has at least four dimensions: MIPS, FLOPS, cache size, and memory bandwidth.
Then some joker comes along and says, "What I mean by "power" is the ability to run for eight hours without having to charge the battery"; that is, "power" is something like the reciprocal of watts consumed.
Back to software. It isn't just power of the language, it's power to do something - to write the program you're trying to write. What language is going to make that easiest, all things considered - the language itself, libraries, ecosystem, familiarity of team-members, ease of learning? Pick that language, because that language is "the most powerful" - for your situation.
PG says that Lisp is at the top of the power curve, looking down at all other languages. And Lisp practitioners are sure they're looking down, and they'll tell you why. "How can you get anything done in Haskell? It doesn't even have macros."
But Haskell programmers are sure that they're at the top of the power curve, and that when they look at other languages (including Lisp!) that they're looking down. And they know why they're looking down. "How can you get anything done in Lisp? It doesn't even have a decent type system!"
I have in fact heard almost the exact argument of PG's essay before, from proponents of a heavyweight CASE tool.
This fact - that proponents of two languages are both sure that they're looking down when they look at the other language - tells us that something is very wrong with PG's idea. The problem is the idea that all languages can be ranked on a one-dimensional axis labeled "power".
To see what's wrong with this idea, look at hardware. We know what "power" means there - it's MIPS. Until you think a bit more. Then you realize "Well, we've got that floating-point code, so we have think about FLOPS, too. And there's that one data set that won't fit into cache, so we need to worry about memory bandwidth... unless we can trade off some clock speed for cache size..." Suddenly "power" has at least four dimensions: MIPS, FLOPS, cache size, and memory bandwidth.
Then some joker comes along and says, "What I mean by "power" is the ability to run for eight hours without having to charge the battery"; that is, "power" is something like the reciprocal of watts consumed.
Back to software. It isn't just power of the language, it's power to do something - to write the program you're trying to write. What language is going to make that easiest, all things considered - the language itself, libraries, ecosystem, familiarity of team-members, ease of learning? Pick that language, because that language is "the most powerful" - for your situation.