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Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by tyre on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:14AM (#11469585)
No, but you can frame it in a way where he was correct.

Look at some of the largest tech companies and what languages they used to get big:

  - Facebook: PHP
  - Twitter: Ruby
  - Dropbox: Python
  - Box: PHP
  - Github: Ruby
  - AirBnB: Ruby
Probably not what PG would have had in mind.

If you move away from his objective claim about Lisp's "power" to a subjective metric based on "the right tool for the job", then sure. (Though reading e.g. Hackers and Painters, his argument around Lisp was specific to the power of that language.)

PHP perfectly fits the "move fast and break things" mantra of early Facebook. Ruby allowed for quick iteration at early Twitter.

Note that Facebook built a PHP-to-C++ compiler called HipHop, while Twitter switched largely to Scala. Box (to the best of my knowledge) has supplemented PHP with Java and Scala. Github maintained a custom fork of Rails for a long time to achieve the performance it needed.

So no, it doesn't appear that Lisp-flavoured companies have an advantage.

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by incepted on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:20AM (#11469605)
All good points.

Even though it's hard to find any flaw in "Use the right tool for the job", I still think that the success of a start up in Silicon Valley (and probably the rest of the world) has a lot less to do with the technical choices of the company than the people who work there. And luck. A lot of luck.

It's still baffling to me that pg doesn't realize how lucky he was. He was in the right place at the right time and he was probably surrounded by competent technical and non technical people. If you have such a team, the technical preferences of the engineers will probably have very little bearing on the success of the company as long as they use the tools they are proficient with and which allow them to execute quickly.

I mean, the fact that Rails and PHP were at the origin of Twitter and Facebook alone shows that the quality of programming languages is irrelevant for the early year(s) of a start up.

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by fleitz on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:23AM (#11469620)
where are the assembler startups if more powerful languages don't give benefits?
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by incepted on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:25AM (#11469626)
Where did I say that more powerful languages don't give benefits?

Besides, assembly fails the "allows to execute quickly" test.

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by fleitz on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:39AM (#11469832)
Ruby has very similar expressive power to LISP...

I'm pretty sure that what PG was trying to say was that given two languages X and Y that if X is more powerful (expressive) than Y it will be better for startups.

Not that if you don't use X there is no way your startup will be successful, and certainly not that if you don't use LISP you won't be successful.

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by taneq on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:32AM (#11469650)
It's true that you can frame it that way, but I think it's clear that this wasn't the spirit of what he was saying, and is certainly a far less controversial message ("use the right tool for the job" is hardly groundbreaking!)

I always thought he was speaking largely from survivor bias - "we succeeded, and we did X, therefore X must have contributed to our success."

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by tyre on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:46AM (#11469693)
Yes absolutely. For the record, PG was not saying to use the right tool for the job. Or do, but that tool is Lisp.

My comment was couching against someone coming in later with a "well he really meant the right tool for the job."

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by wasdfan on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:33AM (#11469653)
This is base rate neglect: the percentage of people who are using elite tier languages (LISP, etc) are tiny in comparison to the number of people slinging Ruby/Python/etc. All that needs to be shown is that, per capita, LISP users tend to do better. Unfortunately, I don't have such data at my fingertips :)
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by kartickv on Tuesday April 12, 2016 @12:24AM (#11477253)
This is very useful, thanks. I'll concentrate on learning Ruby.