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Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by striking on Sunday April 10, 2016 @11:38PM (#11469481)
I can't give you statistical evidence, but it's well known (or often said, at least) that using the right tool for the job makes the odds of success a lot higher.

That being said, "right" is very different from pg's "powerful", especially as he says:

> Lisp is so great not because of some magic quality visible only to devotees, but because it is simply the most powerful language available.

In my opinion (and this person's[1]), Lisp is "powerful" in that it lets you express anything quickly and easily in a way that makes sense to you.

That doesn't mean it makes sense to anyone, nor does that mean it's compatible with anything else.

And where he says:

> What's less often understood is that there is a more general principle here: that if you have a choice of several languages, it is, all other things being equal, a mistake to program in anything but the most powerful one.

I feel he is sorely mistaken. The best programming language for the job is the one that most easily and quickly fits the requirements, given your experience level and the intrinsic attributes of the languages in question. That may be less true when you're working on a personal project rather than one for work... but from an engineering standpoint, development speed is very important.

PHP may be near-universally reviled as a language, but I won't contest the fact that it runs anywhere, quickly. If you needed to quickly put up a blog at least some time ago, the answer was almost always "use Wordpress and PHP".

Python is slow. Painfully slow. Slow as in "it stores the entire AST at runtime and lets you modify it while the program runs" slow. But it's also great at numerical computation with numpy. And it's enormously flexible (which is what makes it slow). And it's clean. It writes really well. For a quick mathematical processing program or website whose code needs to be legible, it's great.

This goes on for just about any language. There are reasons to, and not to, use a programming language. It's not just "power" that's important, it's a number of factors. I hate many languages with a passion, but I'll agree that those languages still have their uses. So I disagree with pg here.

1: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by mr_luc on Monday April 11, 2016 @09:48AM (#11471421)
> That being said, "right" is very different from pg's "powerful"... > Lisp is "powerful" in that it lets you express > anything quickly and easily in a way that makes sense > to you. That doesn't mean it makes sense to anyone ...

Graham and his cofounder (and later Trevor Blackwell) all wrote different areas of the product, in different languages.

Joe Armstrong (creator of Joe's Abstract Machine) has also argued very recently for this kind of development.

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't seen it work myself. But when the people practicing it are at that level, maybe the problem is just that there aren't enough really good programmers?

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by striking on Monday April 11, 2016 @02:44PM (#11474074)
I believe we currently lack the tools to so cross-language development. I don't think it's impossible, and it's a great idea.

I wish the world were full of really good programmers. But when you don't, you have to make do.

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by EuAndreh on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:07AM (#11469564)
I believe that is what he meant by "all other things being equal". They are equal in library availability, speed, etc.
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by tyre on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:15AM (#11469587)
Which is literally never the case, so kind of a moot point.
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by EuAndreh on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:50AM (#11469707)
Wasn't he just trying to isolate the variables?
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by tyre on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:00AM (#11469722)
Yes, but if you control for the variables that make the most difference then you do the hypothetical a disservice.

It's like saying that, all response times being equal, it is a fast application server.

What does that really tell you?

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by DasIch on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:17AM (#11469594)
Python doesn't store the entire AST at runtime. You can hook into the import process and modify code before it's compiled to bytecode. You can modify the bytecode at runtime but not any that's on the stack.

Python is also not all that slow, CPython is slow-ish but it's has effectively no optimizations at all. PyPy which has decent optimizations is actually fairly fast and getting faster with every release.

Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by Alphasite_ on Monday April 11, 2016 @12:19AM (#11469603)
ZipPy is damn fast from what I've seen.
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by stray on Monday April 11, 2016 @04:47PM (#11474954)
Isn't startup time painful though?
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by Alphasite_ on Friday April 15, 2016 @01:37AM (#11502420)
Probably, but if pure runtime performance is a concern it should not be a huge issue and I imagine nail gin or something similar would help.
Re:Ask HN: Is there evidence regarding PG's theory about pow... by Terr_ on Monday April 11, 2016 @01:52AM (#11469858)
From a business/ERP-ish standpoint, I believe one of the most important aspects of a language (or framework) is that you minimize how many "translation steps" exist between how the business sees the world and how the programmer is able to implement it.