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Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @04:12PM (#11417434)
Do you really believe that western media care a single bit about free elections in Russia? The only reason they care about it is because The position of Russia government does not match the western narrative.
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Sunday April 03, 2016 @04:55PM (#11417648)
> Ohh, please stop, do you really believe that western media care a single bit about free elections in Russia?

I think any person in the "west" would be delighted to see free elections in Russia. Why wouldn't we? Since it would be a missive influence on our lives, of course western media should care!

A government elected by popular vote would be stabilizing to the region (and the world) since it wouldn't have the same need of maintaining poopularity by inventing an external enemy (and at regular intervals, creating one, if necessary).

> "does not match the western narrative"

What is the "western narrative" really?

I suppose one historical "western narrative" is that the Soviet Union was dissolved in the early 90's, and that the borders drawn then are those of sovereign states who each have a choice of trade/military alliance. I'm getting increasingly worried that this isn't the historical narrative tought in some schools in parts of the former union.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @06:04PM (#11418001)
> I think any person in the "west" would be delighted to see free elections in Russia.

No, they will be delighted to see the candidate they (westerns) like more - win, they won't care who most people really voted and supported in Russia. Putin won on the recent elections and I did not notice any "delighted west media" after that, even thought as I said in a separate comment - vast majority of the people in Russia actually did support Putin vs other candidates. It's hard to see from the outside, but most people in Russia are actually supporting Putin, I think the reason is that those who were against Putin have a better reach to international media since they speak english and are more socially active thus from the outside it looks like most of the population dislikes Putin, which in reality is not true.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Sunday April 03, 2016 @06:40PM (#11418142)
I don't doubt Putin has massive support, but in a country without free press or free elections popularity says nothing. Putin doesn't win elections, he arranges them.

North Koreas leaders have traditionally enjoyed a 100% support, and it might even be genuine support, but it doesn't mean anything.

The media climate in Russia isn't yet North Korean of course, but it's far from a climate in which elections would be called fair. https://index.rsf.org/ (You really don't want to rank with Belarus and Congo on the freedom of press index).

To win a real election you make sure you have freedom of press, then you have an election overseen by internationally recognized observers such as the oecd.

The fact that Putin is popular despite rapidly growing deficits and receding standard of living (at the same time as massive military spending) is pretty telling.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @07:05PM (#11418254)
> rapidly growing deficits and receding standard of living

Really? What is it based on? Compared to a period after the perestroika, level of life has greatly improved in Russia, the worst period of crime and absolute horrendous inability of police to prevent the growth of organized crime is not something most of the people of Russia want to experience again and that is why they want to go with stability which they think Putin gives them.

> in a country without free press or free elections

Throwing around big captions like this does not help a single bit, these words mean absolutely nothing to me, what do you mean by "free press" isn't most of the popular media in UK or US owned and heavily censored by corporate leaders or government parties? What makes this media "free" and media in Russia "not free".

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Monday April 04, 2016 @02:45AM (#11419828)
> Really? What is it based on?

The fact that the budget is balanced on a completely different oil price, and no sanctions. The russian reserve funds are falling pretty rapidly, while defense spending is still increasing and over 5%.

> Compared to a period after the perestroika, level of life has greatly improved in Russia

No doubt. The period after the union dissolved standard off living rapidly rose. The period of openness over the last decade meant great growth and together with rising oil prices it saw rising standards of living. This only changed in the last years with falling oil prices and sanctions which have seen prices rise at a faster rate than wages and pensions. This is also known as a "sinking standard of living". Russian price and wage indices aren't subjective or secret information so please let's not debate whether you can e.g. buy more or less food for a teachers' salary in 2016 than 2013. I'm talking about the very last years now, not the period since 1990.

> stability which they think Putin gives them.

I don't blame them. Putin saw great economic success in his early years. I do however consider it foolish to vote for an authoritarian if the cost of this stability is lack of opposition and lack of free press, which has been the result in recent years.

> what do you mean by "free press"

The methodology used by Reporters Without Borders is a pretty decent one:

  "[The level of] pluralism, media independence, environment and self-censorship, legislative framework, transparency, and infrastructure. The questionnaire takes account of the legal framework for the media (including penalties for press offences, the existence of a state monopoly for certain kinds of media and how the media are regulated) and the level of independence of the public media."
As I posted earlier, Russia fares no better than Belarus in this matter (a totalitarian dictatorship!) and also little better than many third world failed states, which is just embarrassing for a mostly developed country like Russia.

> Isn't most of the popular media in UK or US owned and heavily censored by corporate leaders or government parties?

Yes, a lot of the press is owned by corporations, or non political organizations, or political parties, or individuals. A lot of it has a party bias. That's entirely natural. Pluralism is the key -- e.g. are there media outlets representing all political parties etc? Is there excessive control of one type of media such as TV by a government entity? Self-censorship is a problem, but this problem is accounted for in the freedom-of-press index.

> What makes this media "free" and media in Russia "not free".

It's not black and white, it's a scale from completely unfree (North Korea) to completely free (Nowhere!). Somewhere along this scale we can argue that is are "free" and somewhere I'd argue they are not free.

Where one draws that line is entirely arbitrary. Out of pure interest - if you yourself were to use the freedom of press ranking to draw a line somewhere above north korea where you consider the press to be "free", which state is that? Since it is below Russia in the ranking, where is it? Belarus? Cuba? Saudi Arabia?

I do suspect this -- you will not be able to pick a state on that list as being below Russia but still enjoying press freedom. What you will have to do instead is a) dismiss reporters without borders and their "freedom of press index" as a western invention deviced to make "western style media" look good, while painting the Russian media landscape as failed, or b) claim that no country on the rank has free press, even Finland at the top spot, since hey, all media in Finland are owned and self censored by individuals and corporations or parties or organizations...

If you are going to do a) or b) above, don't bother - you'd be better of not responding.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:29AM (#11420036)
> The russian reserve funds are falling pretty rapidly

Any data to back up that claim? Looking at the national reserve fund data it does not look to be anywhere near "falling pretty rapidly" [1]

Also Russian national debt has decreased by quite a lot in recent years [2], and now is only about 25% of GDP, which is a very low figure compared to other countries.

1 - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B5%D1%80...

2 - https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%BD...

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Monday April 04, 2016 @03:59AM (#11420134)
The fund shrunk by 20% in the last two years (from 2014 to 2016) due to the sanctions and low oil prices. I'd say 10% on a per-year basis is pretty fast.

http://old.minfin.ru/en/nationalwealthfund/statistics/amount...

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Monday April 04, 2016 @04:29AM (#11420243)
Why are you only cherry picking the data that fits your narrative? The link you included shows that since the time when Putin become a president in 2008 - reserve fund increased by more than 230% in USD and almost 10X in rubbles, the recent drop in reserve fund in USD is happening because of the oil prices decrease (same thing is happening with US national reserve [1]) , but even thought oil prices dropped by almost 400% in recent 2 years - the Russian reserve fund has only dropped by 20% in USD and it actually increased in rubbles. I am very far from Putin supporter, and I absolutely dislike what is happening in Russia, but I just don't like when people come up with "facts" by cherrypicking stuff, if you want to be objective - look at the combined data, do not ignore whatever does not fit your narrative.

1 - http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/foreign-exchan...

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Monday April 04, 2016 @05:35AM (#11420459)
I'm not cherry picking I'm just talking about the recent years and I'm completely aware that the economic situation is due in large part to low oil prices. There was no problem being popular when high oil prices and an open market meant steadily increasing standard of living. What I'm discussing is how hard it is for any politician to be popular in the face of rapidly decreasing purchasing power and living standard such as when there is a budget deficit and inflation. So why isn't Putins popularity decreasing when the economy is? Is it because the people saw what he did in 2008-2014 and trust he can bring that back? Makes sense, but a diverse media would question that idea. It wouldn't be enough in any country with a working media and opposition. Leaders in working democracies don't have that high approval ratings even in good times.

The last couple of years have seen large inflation, and also stagnated salaries/pensions. This is a very recent phenomenon and started with falling oil prices and was worsened by the Crimea sanctions.

You could argue that discussing 2013-16 is cherry picking but those 3 years are pretty special -- they are the most recent 3!

With the sanctions in place 7+ percent inflation and oil prices looking to stay low for a long time, spending 5-6% on the military while the public can buy less every month for their salaries is only sustainable in one single way - make a story that the nation is in a conflict with an external enemy. That it's "us against them". It's simple nationalism and it has always worked. To support that story you cannot have an alternative narrative either so you must effectively control media and ensure there is no working opposition. This is exactly what the rest of the world believe has happened, which is why everyone is worried. It's becaus we fear that given enough time - the people of Ru wouldn't actually know they don't like Putin because there is no media that gives them any reason not to!

The point isn't that Putin is mismanaging the economy directly - it's that he is isolating Russia economically e.g by the Crimea story which will hurt the economy over time.

The same would happen in the US if Mr Trump was elected, but the difference there would be that media would eat him alive after that (e.g alienating Mexico or the entire Muslim world) and the opposition would win in a landslide come the next election.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by isaacremuant on Monday April 04, 2016 @08:47AM (#11421420)
> I think any person in the "west" would be delighted to see free elections in Russia. Why wouldn't we? Since it would be a missive influence on our lives, of course western media should care!

In practice, that's not true. Take Egypt as an example where the US government tried to keep Mubarak/Suleiman in place [1] until it was unfeasible during the Arab Spring. When it was time for elections, they pretended to be for them (And so did the western media and public) until the Muslim Brotherhood was elected. That was not well received because democracy is only good if people elect who we want them to elect.

The military coup [2] happened, probably with foreign intervention, and the US government couldn't be more pleased with it. Most of the western public either doesn't know, doesn't care or thinks it's better that way and the media will go along official US lines and not call them dictators like they don't call US aligned governments authoritarian or non-democratic. That's strictly reserved for our opponents.

[1] - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/05/hillary-clinton... [2] - https://theintercept.com/2014/10/02/feigned-american-support...

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Monday April 04, 2016 @09:20AM (#11421631)
> That was not well received because democracy is only good if people elect who we want them to elect.

Well, there is always the age-old question of whether democracy canbe abandoned with democratic means. (Note I don't know what the MB platform was in these elections, nor what the constiution looked like). Egypt has deep rooted issues with its military being entrenched in all parts of society and politics (A problem which in turn to a large part was created by western intervention /long time subsidies!). Reversing that will take a very long time, and there is always the risk that the people elect a populist government (be it religious populism or some other kind). There is little reason to believe the situation in Egypt will improve any quicker than it has in e.g. Burma. Which is to say, the west will try to meddle in semi-democratic elections for many decades yet.

When I say everyone in the west would be delighted to see free and fair elections in Russia it's because I believe that the Russian people are quite sensible and would elect a decent leadership if given the chance.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by ivan_gammel on Sunday April 03, 2016 @04:42PM (#11417577)
I did not say anything about my beliefs and it is not important WHY do they care about Russia. The only thing that is important, is the result - whether these critics are justified, whether they serve Russian interests or not. They do serve. If this was not someone's goal, shame on that guy, he failed. If it was, thanks to him, he did his job well.
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by tomp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @04:49PM (#11417610)
> whether they serve Russian interests or not. They do serve.

You're assuming that free elections would benefit common Russians. They wouldn't. You're right about one thing, though: it wouldn't be Putin and his cronies siphoning all of Russia's wealth (resourceful citizens, natural resources, ...). It would be the western conglomerates.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by ivan_gammel on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:12PM (#11417768)
The historical data does not support your theory. We all know that some of the countries now belonging to the "Western world", some time ago were neither democracies, nor successful free market economies. Now we all know about German, Korean and Japanese multinationals. Adopting the "Western" way does not mean surrendering and losing political and economical sovereignity. There were trade wars and political conflicts between Western powers, they all play their own games, they just have agreed on the way of conduct for them.
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by tomp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:25PM (#11417821)
I see Germany, Korea and, to a letter extent, Japan, as completely surrendered to US interests.
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by guard-of-terra on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:07PM (#11417742)
I do not know who "common Russians" are. However, I am Russian and I would like free elections, thank you.
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:33PM (#11417862)
What makes you think that recent elections were not free? I am Russian and vast majority of people I know (like 90%) went to vote for Putin. I have one friend who was worried about elections not being free since he was voting for Prokhorov and really disliked Putin, so he signed up as an independent observer at one of the St.Petersburg voting booths, and he was shocked when he saw the amount of people that came to vote for Putin, he said it was like 9/10 people were voting for Putin after they counted vote papers, and he said there was no way to fake those votes at least at his booth.

For some reason individuals in Russia think that if the candidate they were voting for did not win the elections - it means the elections were not free and somehow fake, but you have to understand that there are a vast majority of people in Russia who thought that Putin is a better candidate compared to Prokhorov and others

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by guard-of-terra on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:38PM (#11417888)
Last Duma elections were definitely rigged.

For example, Moscow voted as two different cities: https://github.com/alamar/elegraph/blob/master/moscow.png Note the two obvious centers of blobs. I'm yet to see any non-handwavy explanation of that phenomenon, and why it then disappeared for the next President elections.

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:56PM (#11417968)
Can you explain to me how this chart proves that "elections were DEFINITELY rigged"? I just don't understand what do you mean by "obvious centers of blobs" and how does it correlates with rigged elections?
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by alkonaut on Sunday April 03, 2016 @06:47PM (#11418180)
Who cares if the elections are rigged in terms of vote counting, if oppositional politics or media is more or less non-existent? Without a healthy opposition and oppositional media elections aren't free, period.
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by guard-of-terra on Sunday April 03, 2016 @06:01PM (#11417988)
You would imagine, if Moscow is a city comprised of similar election districts, that election results in that districts will form a continuity.

There would be a few outliers and a massive core of "typical" districts with similar results in them. We're even bound to get Gauss distribution of results or something similar.

However, for Duma election, there's no continuity. There are two distinct profiles. There are a lot of districts with one kind of results, a lot of districts with different kind of results. As if it was two different cities, possibly in two different countries. Or if election results were rigged in a large subset of districts.

Why would that be?

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by usaphp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @06:36PM (#11418122)
Moscow is a huge city (12 mln population). I don't think that different results in different parts of it give you any reason to call elections "DEFINITELY rigged", if you look at New York state (which has similar population size as Moscow) elections for 2012 [1], you will also see that each county has a pretty different kind of results, some counties were in full support of Obama, and some were in support of Romney, but that does not make it "definitely rigged" no?

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_ele...

Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by tomp on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:25PM (#11417829)
Don't get me wrong - I definitely hope and wish you get them. I also hope and wish they won't be abused by the West. And I hope I'm wrong with my pessimism. But I fear I'm right...
Re:Panama Papers: Mossack Fonseca leak reveals elite's tax h... by guard-of-terra on Sunday April 03, 2016 @05:35PM (#11417877)
In this world, everybody is trying to abuse everybody else all the time at the background and foreground.

One just should not use "external abuse" as reason to act (or not).