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Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by personjerry on Friday April 01, 2016 @11:24PM (#11410072)
You are wrong.

First, historically, race was only firmly established as a legacy of the colonial era. For example, in the colonial era, how was it decided in Louisiana if one man was black or not? The answer is, less than 1/32 of his ancestry must be of "black blood"[0]. This sort of thinking and arbitrary ruling is how race was established as a social construct.

Science at the time, based on the physiology of skull shapes and other body features, was shaped in order to draw a line between the "superior" race and the "inferior" race; this is a belief we sometimes still carry. In modern science we know that there is enough variation in people that it is basically impossible to concretely associate certain genes with certain races[1]. So in fact, race IS a social construct; race is the generalizations we unfairly make.

[As a bonus, any two humans average 99.5% the same DNA]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by 67726e on Friday April 01, 2016 @11:34PM (#11410101)
That doesn't refute the parent's point. There is more to race than some jackass using it as a means to discriminate. It is not just a "social construct".
Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by hansen on Saturday April 02, 2016 @01:22AM (#11410356)
I’m just skimming over the wikipedia article [1]. Could you please clarify about what definition of race we are talking here?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28biology%29

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by personjerry on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:29AM (#11410220)
I thought I effectively showed a "basis in science" (genetics), directly refuting the claim in the parent.
Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by gozur88 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:42AM (#11410249)
So your idea is genetics are a social construct?
Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by personjerry on Saturday April 02, 2016 @01:58AM (#11410442)
I'm saying race is based on historical and social circumstances. This notion is further supported because races are scientifically (genetically) difficult to distinguish. Hence "race is a social construct" is in fact based in science, directly arguing against the parent comment.
Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by Pilfer on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:36AM (#11410515)
>race is a social construct is based in science

This is especially silly and misleading. Race is considered a "social construct" under the theory of Social Constructionism. For people who don't subscribe to the theory of Social constructionism, race is not a "social construct". Social constructionism itself is not based on biological and evolutionary fact. It is a philosophical approach to the world that conveniently disregards biology, genetics, behavioral ecology, and enormous scale (n=millions) of statistical studies. When you remove Social Constructionism from your thesis, your entire argument falls apart.

Most people do not believe in discredited theories like social constructionism. The other posters in this thread are asking you to rework your argument without appeals to Social Constructionism, and you show you are unable to do so.

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by force_reboot on Saturday April 02, 2016 @08:15PM (#11414228)
Races are not difficult to distinguish, in fact determining self-identified race from genetic data is trivial, and genetic data is clustered in ways that reflect the common usage of racial categories. For example see http://www.gettinggeneticsdone.com/2011/10/new-dimension-to-...
Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by gozur88 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:45AM (#11410529)
>I'm saying race is based on historical and social circumstances.

This is patently untrue, though.

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by gozur88 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @12:42AM (#11410245)
>First, historically, race was only firmly established as a legacy of the colonial era.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying a Roman in Africa didn't notice the guys around him had black skin?

>For example, in the colonial era, how was it decided in Louisiana if one man was black or not? The answer is, less than 1/32 of his ancestry must be of "black blood"[0]. This sort of thinking and arbitrary ruling is how race was established as a social construct.

This is non-responsive. You're talking about the legal response to race, which is irrelevant to the question of whether race actually exists.

In fact, you've written nothing that addresses the point. When a white guy and a black guy are walking down the street, do you have trouble when someone asks you to point out the white guy?

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by personjerry on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:13AM (#11410466)
>I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying a Roman in Africa didn't notice the guys around him had black skin?

"Romans in Africa vs. black skin" is actually a different point. Differences existed between people, but the notion of "race" did not. I'm trying to explain what the history of the notion of "race" was, because we take it for granted now. If you would read the history of race, especially the colonial time around the 17th to 19th century[0], you can see that that is when the notion of "race" as we know it really started to develop as a result of anthropological studies and colonial goals (but NOT genetic, modern scientific studies).

>For example, in the colonial era, how was it decided in Louisiana if one man was black or not? The answer is, less than 1/32 of his ancestry must be of "black blood"[0]. This sort of thinking and arbitrary ruling is how race was established as a social construct.

This is an example of how arbitrary and socially constructed race is.

Not sure if you read my second paragraph, but I wrote this: "In modern science we know that there is enough variation in people that it is basically impossible to concretely associate certain genes with certain races[1]."

You seemed to be convinced that "race is a social construct" has no scientific basis, but my argument is that there is no strong basis for race in science. The only alternative choice then seems to be social.

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by loki49152 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @04:24AM (#11410736)
The term "race" was most likely coined by Immanuel Kant, in German as rassen, to name his view that there were actually different kinds of people. The more common view before Kant was that environment shaped people.

It's not really true that race is a "socially construct". It's a specific belief about the nature of human beings, attributable to a specific person.

As a fun side note, being "racist" means believing that race is a real thing. It has nothing to do with what one thinks of different races, how one feels about them, or whether or not one feels differently about them at all. Just be living that "race" names something true about humans makes a person a racist.

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by belltaco on Saturday April 02, 2016 @02:16AM (#11410474)
First, white and black are not races.

Many Mexicans and east Indians look visually similar to each other that people confuse they for the other. But one is Hispanic and the other is not.

Re:Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist? by gozur88 on Saturday April 02, 2016 @05:29PM (#11413556)
>First, white and black are not races.

Yes, no kidding.

>Many Mexicans and east Indians look visually similar to each other that people confuse they for the other. But one is Hispanic and the other is not.

True, but irrelevant. All I need to do to disprove "race is a social construct" is come up with a single case where it's obviously not the case.