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Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by twakefield on Thursday March 31, 2016 @03:37PM (#11399950)
If anyone involved with this is around, I'm curious why Airbnb would build something like this - cost, performance, features, all of the above? Data querying and visualization is a pretty crowded field with a lot of commercial options to choose from[1].

I'm not knocking Caravel (it looks amazing) just curious why build vs buy in this case.

[1] Tableau, Looker, Periscope, Chartio, Qlikview, Gooddata are just some that come to mind.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by caravel on Thursday March 31, 2016 @05:57PM (#11400888)
Well none of the solutions mentionned are open source.

Free as in beer is one incentive as licenses are not cheap, and vendors know when they have you locked down and tend to milk everything they can.

More importantly, software for which we don't have control over the source is a risk. In this day and age anyone that cares enough should be able to push a bugfix/hotfix overnight. What if you'd have to wait for entire quarters or years for Tableau to parallelize their "live mode", or to get connectivity to Presto to work?

What if you want to integrate a new type of visualization that isn't supported? What if you want to integrate with your anomaly detection framework or your A/B testing framework or other internal or external facing applications?

Since this is a common need for most companies, it makes sense to have an open source solution that we can all use and collaborate on.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by timr on Thursday March 31, 2016 @06:21PM (#11401049)
"Free as in beer is one incentive as licenses are not cheap, and vendors know when they have you locked down and tend to milk everything they can."

Free as in beer is never the answer. A project like this takes multiple engineer-years to build and maintain. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least. How much is a site license? Are you sure? Have you negotiated the rate?

Even for "expensive" services, buying it from someone else is almost always cheaper than paying someone to maintaining it yourself, because expensive services are usually expensive for a good reason: they're niche, and finding someone with the expertise to build it is expensive. And having the source is for a product so that you can customize it is certainly a better answer, but it rarely happens, in practice. It's why we have gobs of open-source Apache-foundation products that nobody in their right mind wants to host in-house, unless they absolutely have to.

Developers have a real, well-documented resistance to paying for things, and it sucks. Because in reality, most development of open-source tools happens when someone gets paid to maintain the tool. If they don't, the tool falls into disrepair. Open-source software isn't free -- it's just paid for by someone else.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by rubyfan on Thursday March 31, 2016 @10:00PM (#11402049)
I work at a Fortune 100 and we use fairly well known warehousing database. I can tell you we spend a serious amount of money for our licenses, infrastructure, employee talent, staff-aug contractors and management overhead running this commercial solution. Much of the human resource I would classify as over compensated and non-productive.

We also use some of the previously mentioned visualization technologies and get generally poor results by all measures.

If AirBNB has a few engineers around who are part of solving a unique challenge AirBNB has, then they are probably getting a better deal than we are. I'd wager their productivity per resource is significantly better, not to mention licensing, infrastructure and control over product features. That said, not everyone is AirBNB and has the ability to attract and retain that type of talent.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by timr on Thursday March 31, 2016 @10:21PM (#11402119)
But what's the alternative? Write your own warehousing database? Likely not. Even AirBnB hasn't done that.

I'm not saying that you wouldn't choose a good open source alternative if it exists. I'm saying that you shouldn't run off and implement something that exists commercially if your only reason is that the commercial thing costs money.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by rubyfan on Friday April 01, 2016 @01:41AM (#11402903)
Yeah build our own isn't a good option for us for a few reasons.

1. Our problem set is not novel, we're more or less like many others out there and collectively we are a market that a vendor can build a product for

2. Since we have significantly more revenue than a startup like AirBNB we can rationalize and amortize an ongoing expense

3. We actively try not to do things that aren't our core competency

4. Even if we wanted to we have plenty of human resources but not the talent to build our own analytic DB or data visualization tools

I think AirBNB is likely a much different company than most. Their approach to talent attraction/retention, novelty of problem set, ability and tolerance to make a multimillion dollar capital investment in analytic database and visualization tools, etc, etc. In their case the upstart cost of building a custom thing and the value prop likely makes sense.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by caravel on Thursday March 31, 2016 @09:30PM (#11401945)
There's also an in house cost in maintaining vendor software and integrating it. That's on top of the 20% usual maintenance fee.

Building a community can also help distributing the costs. But more importantly it's a labour of collaboration instead of a client/vendor struggle.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by timr on Thursday March 31, 2016 @09:37PM (#11401967)
If the cost of integrating the service is higher than the cost of building it, then sure, don't buy the service.

But if you find this to be a frequent occurrence, you're almost certainly evaluating costs incorrectly.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by nnq on Friday April 01, 2016 @05:51AM (#11403781)
> than paying someone to maintaining it yourself

You do realize that this is probably THE reason to open-source a piece of custom software after you've built it, right?

...I imagine that they expect the community will do X% of the maintenance work now, so they can save Y%, so win-win for both the company and the community. Also, you increase the probability that any new hires will be at least mildly familiar with your in-house stack if you open-source some of it (think TensorFlow).

Free as in beer is the best answer when you have reasonable expectations that the community will really embrace the product and you'll get back "free as in beer" upgrades and bugfixes to the software you won't otherwise have the budget to properly maintain (and properly document, btw! think of all the free tutorials that will be written for this after it gets popular!) :)

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by sdesol on Thursday March 31, 2016 @10:32PM (#11402155)
> Developers have a real, well-documented resistance to paying for things

This is why you never try to target developers and if you do, you have to make sure the initial cost to use it is negligible. This is what Atlassian does very well, with their pricing structure.

In the past, I developed in house tools for massive Enterprise companies and the common theme has always been, we can do it better and cheaper. Sometimes that's true, sometimes it's not. I noticed this trend slowly tapering off before I left to start my startup and this was due to the availability of better open source solutions.

Technical people always overestimate what they are capable of, present company included, and if you are set on selling to developers, you have to make sure the barrier to use is negligible. By at least trying, they will either come to the conclusion that what you have created is a piece of shit or they realize it's not worth their time and effort to duplicate/maintain.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by phunge on Thursday March 31, 2016 @03:50PM (#11400085)
They mention that it was originally paired with Druid. The data volume that Druid excels at (and that AirBnB must have) is orders of magnitude larger than what Tableau&Looker do well with. It's probably just built for bigger-than-SQL OLAP usecases.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by dwmintz on Thursday March 31, 2016 @04:26PM (#11400328)
It's worth distinguishing between the tools that leave the data in your data warehouse (Caravel, Periscope, Mode, Looker (where I work)), and those that have their own data stores (Good Data, Qlikview, etc.) Tableau can connect directly to your datastore, but it's happier if it can operate on data that's stored locally in-memory.

Anyway, the ones where bring your own database can scale as far as the database can bring you.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by caravel on Thursday March 31, 2016 @05:44PM (#11400790)
Note that Tableau doesn't play well with Presto which Airbnb uses extensively. No possibility of using the "live mode"
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by dwmintz on Friday April 01, 2016 @10:04AM (#11404808)
Not arguing that Airbnb should use Looker, but fwiw, Looker (where I work) does in fact connect to Presto fine.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by jsiegz on Thursday March 31, 2016 @04:12PM (#11400249)
Looker scales with plenty of data for us at Snapchat, it's more about the underlying database than the BI tool.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by MechanicalTwerk on Thursday March 31, 2016 @07:14PM (#11401345)
Note that this user used to work at Looker.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by jsiegz on Thursday March 31, 2016 @08:31PM (#11401706)
yep i did.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by adrr on Thursday March 31, 2016 @05:38PM (#11400748)
Looker performance comes from the underlying storage of data. You can store massive amounts of data on say a Red Shift cluster and still be performant. Most visualization tools that i know are directly tied to storage tier in terms of performance.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by caravel on Thursday March 31, 2016 @05:45PM (#11400802)
I don't think Looker supports Druid.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by dwmintz on Friday April 01, 2016 @10:03AM (#11404803)
That's correct. We (I work at Looker) are written to leverage the analytical capabilities of SQL. So we support all kinds of SQL implementations, from totally standard (PG, MySQL, MS) to MPPs (Redshift, BigQuery) to SQL-on-Hadoop (Hive, Impala, Presto, Spark).

But the JDBC -> Druid connectors that exist look pretty janky. So if someone builds a stable connector, I suspect we'd support it. But for the moment, no Druid.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by tlrobinson on Thursday March 31, 2016 @09:25PM (#11401926)
To throw out an open source one: Metabase http://www.metabase.com https://github.com/metabase/metabase

Disclaimer: I work on Metabase.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by gedrap on Friday April 01, 2016 @04:59AM (#11403576)
Not really related to your product, but I find the trend of using emojis in commit messages really distracting. It's probably okay-ish very very rarely for something huge, but commit log reading like slack chat... Em not sure about it.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by dwmintz on Thursday March 31, 2016 @04:11PM (#11400240)
Can't speak for Airbnb, but I'm not sure that any of the front-end clients that you mentioned (disclosure: I work at Looker), can talk to Druid. So if Airbnb already had a Druid warehouse in place, they may have decided it was easier to roll their own front-end than migrate to a different backend.
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by caravel on Thursday March 31, 2016 @06:16PM (#11401019)
Druid is definitely part of the equation.

Larger, data-driven companies with significant engineering teams prefer not relying on 3rd party, closed-sourced vendors. That can represent a significant risk and a blockage for deeper integration with other internal applications when needed.

Not that building always wins over buying, but the balance shifts relatively to the size of the company.

Also, when using open source on the receiving end of the equation, you want to be a good citizen and contribute back to the ecosystem. It ties to pride, passion, and reflect a strong engineering culture, which can help with recruiting.

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by vgt on Thursday March 31, 2016 @10:21PM (#11402121)
Your points resonate with me very strongly, but I do have a counter argument.

I work on Google Cloud, where we have both closed-source - BigQuery, open source - Dataproc, and closed source that makes open source rock - Dataflow/Beam. There are merits to each.

BigQuery is serverless and multi-tenant and can't really exist outside of Google Cloud due to its intrinsic dependency on low-level services that don't exist elsewhere (and for the same reasons we couldn't directly externalize Borg, choosing to create an OSS clone in Kubernetes).

It is not unusual for me to hear from folks that they spent 6+ months building a performant and sizable, say Presto cluster. Then there's continuous management, tinkering, configuration, and optimization projects. I hear this from companies that one would consider sophisticated technologically.

By contrast, 40% of all of BigQuery's Petabyte customers scale to these levels without ever talking to us. We just find them on consumption reports. On multiple occasions we've had "surprise" load tests of millions of rows per second streamed into BigQuery, and it just works. BigQuery is also HA out of the box at no additional cost, which is a great luxury.

So sometimes if you need to scale analytics to Petabytes, the option is to just consume a managed and cost-effective service, or tinker with OSS, where there are significant operational tradeoffs. On the other hand, as you said, you build pride and culture. It's also far from an automatic shoo-in that OSS gives you better TCO (against the old closed-source guard, yes, but not so much BQ). Thus, the relationship between company size and value of technology can invert at higher levels.

With all that, I'd love to see a Caravel-BQ plugin :)

(PS. Kudos to Druid for introducing a Streaming ingest. BigQuery also sees value in Streaming ingest, GA-ing our own Streaming API in March of 2015, and Kudos to Airflow).

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by CurtMonash on Friday April 01, 2016 @06:28AM (#11403878)
Roughly how many petabyte customers are you talking about?
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by ernestbro on Friday April 01, 2016 @06:11AM (#11403831)
There is a study done by a market analyst (Wayne Eckerson) about Building vs Buying BI, he has some good insights based on surveys as to why some companies chose to build and some choose to buy

71% of those who chose to build the BI tools said they built because "We can customize the functionality better"

51% of those who buy say "Buying enables us to provide best-in-class BI functionality"

The study: http://www.jaspersoft.com/sites/default/files/confirmation_f...

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by ccozan on Thursday March 31, 2016 @06:43PM (#11401179)
It is even crowded than that on the commercial offering [0]. But having such a tool as Open Source benefits us all. Especially when trying to connect to obscure or non standard data sources.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_analytical_processing#M...

Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by ljk on Thursday March 31, 2016 @03:38PM (#11399956)
part of it is probably recruiting
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by andreasklinger on Thursday March 31, 2016 @04:00PM (#11400157)
I am pretty sure they used multiple (and then most likely at some point too many) of those tools
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by maerF0x0 on Thursday March 31, 2016 @05:31PM (#11400699)
Few more for your list: Leftronic (service) or Grafana (package)
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by hathym on Friday April 01, 2016 @04:09AM (#11403440)
investor's money, baby!
Re:Airbnb open-sources Caravel: data exploration and visuali... by nedwin on Thursday March 31, 2016 @03:43PM (#11400009)
aesthetics