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Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by jessaustin on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:06AM (#11208194)
Do you realize that this is basically just apologetics for the reign of W? The reason that there are armed conflicts in Iraq is because USA broke that nation, and the decades it will take to heal have not yet elapsed. The reason there are armed conflicts in Syria is because it's next to Iraq, and also various parties have schemed to weaken the (admittedly awful) incumbent regime. The desert isn't new. It's not as though fifty years ago these places were covered in rain forests. It's not as though ISIS have less need for water than whomever they've replaced.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by w84t1me on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:57AM (#11208340)
Because the middle east was a sea of peace, social stability and contentment beforehand? The Iraq war was a disaster, but let's not kid ourselves about a simplistic root cause.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by kafkaesq on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @04:18PM (#11213084)
Because the middle east was a sea of peace, social stability and contentment beforehand?

Straw man arguments don't help, either.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by markdown on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @01:23AM (#11208406)
> Because the middle east was a sea of peace, social stability and contentment beforehand?

Relative to now, yes it most certainly was.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by bprieto on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @03:20AM (#11208708)
Except for the Kuwait invasion and Gulf War, and between 500.000 and 1.5M people dead in the 9 years of Iran-Irak war in the 80s, and tens of thousand palestinians killed by jordanians in the 70s, and several Israel-Arab wars since 1947, and Lebanon civil war.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by jeremysmyth on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @03:48AM (#11208817)
Time at war isn't the only measure of peace, social stability and contentment in a country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by markdown on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @03:37AM (#11208769)
There was a decade of relative peace in that region before the US went on the warpath.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by modoc on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @08:33AM (#11209769)
Ignoring Saddam deciding he could just invade nearby countries?
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @08:49AM (#11209858)
No, that was outside of the decade in question. So it's not being ignored so much as excluded by definition.

Of course, the time when Iraq did that shortly before the decade in question, he had just spent nearly a decade involved in another invasion of a neighboring country -- with the full support of the US, which even rushed to publicly support Iraq when international pressure arose over their use of chemical weapons. So, its not exactly a mystery where he got the idea he could just invade neighboring countries with no consequences.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by graycat on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @10:05AM (#11210330)
> So, its not exactly a mystery where he got the idea he could just invade neighboring countries with no consequences.

IIRC, an apparently poorly considered remark by US Ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie on the US position on Saddam's dispute with Kuwait was a biggie.

The joke, and maybe the truth, about the Dick Cheney remark that there was "no doubt" Saddam had weapons of mass destruction was that, of course he had such weapons (poison gas) and of course we knew he had them because we "still had the receipts" from when we sold that gas to him. Of course we wanted Saddam to use that gas against Iran.

IMHO it now appears that Dick Cheney, the neo-cons, etc., had an idea about the world and, especially, Iraq:

(1) Saddam was a bad guy. So, push on him, and if he doesn't obey, then invade him. We pushed; Saddam didn't obey; W and Co. invaded him in Gulf War II.

(2) Then part of the idea was W's statement "The Iraqi people are perfectly capable of governing themselves.". So, with such thinking, the US rushed to set up a government -- democratic, constitutional, parliamentary, secular.

Apparently the US expectation was that quickly the US would leave and Iraq would be liberated, free, relatively independent, peaceful, prosperous from the oil, and a buddy of the US.

Then a reality check set in: Oops, nope. Instead we learned what Saddam had warned us about, that we would have one heck of a time holding Iraq together. Saddam, with Stalinist techniques, had held Iraq together, but without Saddam what we did there just let the place come apart.

Apart? Nearly every street thug, gang leader, ambitious politician or cleric, international opportunist, etc. saw the fertile ground and started up. Soon there was the insurgency, i.e., something between just chaos and a civil war.

A big trigger? One of the first things the US administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, did was to disband Saddam's army. Hmm .... That army had ballpark 7 million men. Let's see: IIRC, Iraq had ballpark 35 million people so 17.5 million males. So, the 7 million men was essentially all the men of military age in the country -- all of them. Hmm.

So, right away Bremer just put all 7 million on the streets, broke. Uh, maybe we might have thought a little about just why Saddam had those 7 million men in his army? Maybe mostly to keep them under his control and off the streets?

In particular, as the army was disbanded, Saddam's huge weapons supplies were left unguarded, then stolen, then used in the insurgency, e.g., as roadside bombs that killed/injured a lot of US soldiers.

The main reason for the insurgency? There are three main populations in Iraq, Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds. They all hate each other. At least the Sunnis and Shiites have been at war with each other for over 1000 years.

And now, Iraq is essentially partitioned into Kurd, Sunni, and Shiite areas.

The Shiites have Baghdad and south and east from there to Iran, the Persian Gulf, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

The Sunnis have the area north and west of Baghdad and extending into northern Syria, and that Sunni area is mostly under the control of fundamentalist, medieval, brutal, angry, hostile, ambitious ISIS.

The Kurds have their areas, mostly on both sides of the border of Turkey.

Iran? Shiite.

Saudi Arabia? Sunni.

Assad in Syria? A branch of Shiite.

The rebels in Syria? Sunni.

The civil war in Syria? Apparently just another chapter of the 1000+ year old Sunni-Shiite war.

What's different since 100 years ago? There used to be a lot of desert and not much money or many people -- few people, poor, separated. Now with the oil money, the desert is still there but there is lots of money and many more people. So, the old Sunni-Shiite war can draw lots more blood.

So, that's what W, Cheney, the neo-cons, Wolfowitz, and Bremer took the US into. They were going to dump Saddam, set up a secular democracy friendly with the the US, and leave, all quickly. Lots of thugs quickly saw the fatal flaws, but W and Co. didn't.

So, the US spent lots of precious US blood and treasure chasing the dreams of Cheney, W, etc.

Lesson? If the US wants to play a role in a swamp, then it needs to understand the reptiles -- snakes, alligators, etc. Else, can get bitten by the snakes and alligators.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @04:29PM (#11213168)
> There are three main populations in Iraq, Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds.

I would say this was a nitpick, but given the sibling response its perhaps a more important correction, the three main groupings around which identity politics, etc., work in Iraq are:

Sunni Arabs, Shi'ite Arabs, and Kurds.

The "Arab" modifier matters, because the Kurds are mostly Sunni, but are not (in terms of political identity) aligned with the Sunni Arabs.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by graycat on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @08:43PM (#11214496)
Right, good details. I didn't know those, and the common news sources omit that the Kurds are Sunni but not buddies of the Sunni Arabs.

So, here we illustrate: I don't know even the players on the field. But likely neither did W, Cheney, etc.

So, we reinforce my point: The US should stay the hack out of places it doesn't understand.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by GFK_of_xmaspast on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @05:50PM (#11213695)
You left off "Christian Arabs".
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by arethuza on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @09:00AM (#11209923)
Perhaps worth noting that when Saddam invaded Iran he was presented very much as the "good guy" in Western media.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by danudey on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @12:25AM (#11208244)
Not rain forests, but you don't need to be a rain forest to have a water supply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_crisis_in_Iran

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by PhantomGremlin on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @03:25AM (#11208722)
I think this chart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iran_Population_%281880-2... might have a tad to do with it.

More people means more demand for water.

Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by philipov on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @07:14AM (#11209464)
And "climate change" is a misleading word to call resource exhaustion caused by human populations outgrowing the carrying capacity of their environment. It's as if the humans are simply passive victims of external circumstances.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by 7952 on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @04:23PM (#11213119)
Syria is a mix of different factors. It has a large proportion of subsistence farmers who are disproportionately effected by climatic conditions. It is reasonable to suggest that food shortages and rising poverty could exasperate other sources of insecurity.
Re:Why Did Ancient Europeans Just Disappear 14,500 Years Ago? by jessaustin on Wednesday March 02, 2016 @05:41PM (#11213640)
Most parts of the world (i.e. outside western europe and certain Pacific Rim nations) have a large proportion of subsistence farmers. Most of those parts do not have Iraq and Syria's problems.

ps. you may have meant "exacerbate".