News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by viraptor on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:28AM (#11149605)
I've been looking at various descriptions of distro security policies lately and I'm actually not really decided on what the "right way" is. I agree that if you're an sole operator, you need to monitor the upstream project, disclosure lists, and assigned CVEs. If you're in a larger company, you probably need a team to handle that.

And on one hand side this looks like it makes the issue of the distro choice moot. If you keep on top of announcements, you can either upgrade packages, or port back the patch yourself, or just repackage the latest version. But having the right distribution makes things simpler - you get the benefit of someone backporting the patch earlier and doing a coordinated release. Or maybe even you get a pre-disclosure notification. One way or another, it makes things simpler to rely on someone else's work even if it's not guaranteed that it's always available and complete.

But on the other hand, getting a rolling distro like Arch you get new versions by default. This means your backport is going to be way easier if you have to do it yourself. For example you have to only go 2.3.4->2.3.5, not backport from 2.3.5 to 1.2.3 because that's what's in stable. Arch/Gentoo also had the benefit of releasing grsec kernels which considerably limits the scope of kernel exploits (and userland too to some extent), but Debian joined them lately.

I guess if I had to admin a small service on 5 of so servers full time these days, I could be temped to actually go with some rolling release distro. At larger scale I'd prefer the benefit of using the upstream work. At not-full time job I'd still go with Debian/Ubuntu/CentOS to rely on the automation of common cases.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by wfunction on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:36AM (#11149636)
Could someone explain what's special about Arch compared to other types of Linux? I don't know and I don't understand when reading it here.
Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by viraptor on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:45AM (#11149668)
About Arch itself - nothing much. It's just in the same bag as Gentoo regarding release process. Rolling rather than periodic release means that whenever upstream project releases a new package, it's either automatically monitored or someone clicks "out of date" on the package site (like https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/bash/). Then you get the new version in hours or days, rather than when the next OS release comes out.

Taking GCC for example, that means Arch users are at 5.3.0 now, while Debian is still on 4.9.2.

For security patches though that means that on Arch you have to upgrade to the latest version, while Debian will likely give you the same version you're already running with the issue fixed. This may be annoying on Arch if you're patching PHP for example - it may not work anymore with the site you're running and you have to migrate to the latest version.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by _yy on Monday February 22, 2016 @11:02AM (#11151701)
> It's just in the same bag as Gentoo regarding release process.

There's a big difference, though - Arch Linux has no concept of partial upgrades. You have to update, or things break. Gentoo allows you to stick with old versions and has a pretty sophisticated mechanism for that ("slots"). It's also complicated, which is one of the reasons Arch Linux is easier to use.

This makes Arch Linux unsuitable for pretty much any "production" scenario. Puppet version updated to 4? Tough luck if you didn't scramble and update all of your code since version 4 has backwards-incompatible changes.

Works pretty well for desktops - if something breaks, you can usually just fix it. But it does not scale.

Gentoo, on the other hand, has an unstable and a "stable" channel and you can use it for production systems if you've got the necessary manpower to essentially build your own distro.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by majewsky on Monday February 22, 2016 @12:51PM (#11152713)
I'm running Arch Linux in production for my private systems, and am currently extending it to a system previously on Debian oldstable in order to harmonize my processes.

It works very well for me (I didn't have any update-induced downtimes yet, except for the usual reboots to apply kernel upgrades), but I can easily see how people could struggle with the no-partial-upgrade problem when they employ complex, fast-moving software stacks.

My solution is to package that software myself in a private repo, so that I get to decide when to upgrade. In Arch, probably more than with any other binary distribution, it helps very much to have a good grip on the packaging process. Once you already have your private repo and signing key set up and rolled out everywhere, the barrier to rolling the next custom package is much slower.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by _yy on Tuesday February 23, 2016 @10:16AM (#11159406)
> I didn't have any update-induced downtimes yet, except for the usual reboots to apply kernel upgrades

Wait until the first major backwards-incompatible config format change breaks something. Puppet was one example of many.

> My solution is to package that software myself in a private repo, so that I get to decide when to upgrade.

Works fine for single applications, breaks horribly for system-wide shared libraries.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by g1n016399 on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:47AM (#11149682)
Actually Debian's rolling release is newer than Arch, 5.3.1:

https://packages.debian.org/source/testing/gcc-5

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by viraptor on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:50AM (#11149694)
That's in testing though. Arch has 5.3.0 in core already. Not sure where the .1 comes from since it's not even released yet according to https://gcc.gnu.org/releases.html

Edit: Actually it looks like the versions are just named differently. Debian uses SVN version from 20151205, while Arch uses 20160209. So Arch is more fresh (by 2 months), but uses different naming convention.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by g1n016399 on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:59AM (#11149737)
testing is Debian's rolling release.

Ack on the version stuff.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by amdavidson on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:30AM (#11150629)
Testing isn't a rolling release, that's sid / unstable.

Testing is where the next stable (currently Stretch) is being worked out.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by Ao7bei3s on Monday February 22, 2016 @05:42AM (#11149893)
Except it's not, it's for testing.

Testing doesn't always get security fixes in a timely manner.

Read more at: https://www.debian.org/security/faq#testing

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by _yy on Monday February 22, 2016 @11:04AM (#11151716)
> testing is Debian's rolling release.

Except for when it freezes.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by calpaterson on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:46AM (#11149677)
Arch is based on "rolling" releases where they very quickly promote whatever the original author has released into their distro. I think there are some checks but it is quite a light process. You are a lot closer to the upstream developers of the software you use, but you have to take on the responsibility for stability.

A lot of the Debian process is trying to avoid releasing packages with (known) bugs

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by wfunction on Monday February 22, 2016 @06:37AM (#11150112)
Ahh, that explains it, thank you.
Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by chei0aiV on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:32AM (#11149625)
Some distro rolling releases get upgraded every 6 hours, are you sure you want to potentially upgrade that often?

If I were running a larger company I would assign my security team to help out a distro security team, so I benefit from the work of others as well as getting specific support for the software I really care about.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by viraptor on Monday February 22, 2016 @04:40AM (#11149650)
You don't have to upgrade every 6 hours. The upstream repo may be constantly updated, but the smaller your scope is, the less you need to care about really. For example I expect that I'll have some new packages on my desktop every few hours, but on a server with system+service+monitoring it may be one package a week instead. At that pace, it's trivial to just get notifications and classify updates as critical/useful/whatever.

If you have a proper test/deploy pipeline you can retest with new software all as it's released, but only push to production every week, or when it's critical.

Re:Distribution packages considered insecure by dsr_ on Monday February 22, 2016 @07:55AM (#11150463)
I get more than one package a week from the security updates to Debian stable.