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Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Sunday February 21, 2016 @07:28AM (#11144242)
The CIA and/or NSA very likely knew that the 9/11 terrorists were in the US, learning to fly airliners. Not long after 9/11, there were reports that Mossad agents (the "art students", as I recall) had been tailing the 9/11 terrorists. Almost all of whom were Saudis. But I've seen no credible reports that any of them knew what was planned.

And yes, those pages might be very interesting.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by hartpuff on Sunday February 21, 2016 @07:58AM (#11144316)
> The CIA and/or NSA very likely knew that the 9/11 terrorists were in the US, learning to fly airliners.

Has there ever been an explanation why the hijackers risked conspicuously attending flight schools under the noses of the US authorities, rather than, say, absolutely any other country in the world?

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by bedhead on Sunday February 21, 2016 @10:32AM (#11144855)
Terrorists tend to be stupid. Honestly. Look at Richard Reid, the shoe bomber. The guy goes to the airplane bathroom to prepare his shoe bomb, then he returns to his seat, covers himself with a blanket, and tries to detonate the bomb by lighting the fuse with matches. People next to him notice this easily and maul him. Plot over. So, ummm, why not just detonate the thing while locked in the bathroom??? The guys in flight school just got lucky for the most part, but you're right that it was a strange decision.

It's hard to find good help.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by hartpuff on Sunday February 21, 2016 @12:09PM (#11145301)
Yeah, I've always thought it was insane that for an operation as huge as 9/11 they'd do something as risky as train in the US itself. Rather than venture into conspiracy land (nothing against conspiracies in general; they're often entertaining and, depending on the subject and degree, are not necessarily invalid), I wondered if there were plausible explanations for it.

I can buy the idea that they either didn't think the possible risks through, or just believed they could get away with it long enough to pull off the attack. And also that they may have thought they could learn more about US aviation policy or protocol in the US than elsewhere.

I was sceptical about it being because there are more flight schools in the US, because AIUI they only acquired limited training anyway, which they could have received anywhere. But whatever competence and training they ended up with, they probably at least intended to get as much as possible, and train in bigger, more appropriate aircraft, so that is possibly a factor too.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mseebach on Sunday February 21, 2016 @11:11AM (#11145014)
When you only have a small explosive, you want to detonate it as close to the wing as possible, as this is the weakest spot on the plane - you're basically hoping for the wing to fall off, or at least sever the connections to the control surfaces. Even with a decent hole in the fuselage, there is a very good chance of landing the plane safely as long as the wings stay on.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by bbatsell on Sunday February 21, 2016 @11:57AM (#11145217)
To be clear, the wingbox is, by far, the strongest part of a plane, but it's the most devastating if you can compromise it. (And its primary design goal isn't to account for explosive loads coming from the fuse.)
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by AmVess on Sunday February 21, 2016 @12:59PM (#11145567)
You aren't going to compromise the wingbox with an explosive that fits in the heel of a shoe.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by sokoloff on Sunday February 21, 2016 @08:58AM (#11144505)
Most flight training in the world is done in the US, by a wide margin.

Because of that, they would probably stick out much less doing it here than trying to do it in one of the few EU airline training facilities.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by tptacek on Sunday February 21, 2016 @11:16AM (#11145034)
Not only that, but for the plot to work, the hijackers had to start from within the US. Implanting them in the US long before the attacks made it easier for them to reliably get to their target airports the day of the attack.

In a sense, the comment upthread litigates the whole idea of a "sleeper cell."

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by JoeAltmaier on Sunday February 21, 2016 @11:25AM (#11145080)
Is that the right word? Validates? mitigates?
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by tptacek on Sunday February 21, 2016 @11:40AM (#11145136)
Purposefully argue or debate a position, seeking its resolution, as if before a tribunal.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by madaxe_again on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:10AM (#11144532)
It's cheaper in the US than pretty much anywhere else, and there are large numbers becoming pilots, so more noise to hide in. It might be cheaper to train is some weird and wonderful corners of the world, but they'd have been far more noticeable.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by avs733 on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:52AM (#11144698)
I would venture that the hijackers were just really bad at counter espionage?

You had organizations that had the signals but couldn't communicate, why is it anymore likely that the terrorists themselves were super geniuses?

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by ptaipale on Sunday February 21, 2016 @08:28AM (#11144404)
>Has there ever been an explanation why the hijackers risked conspicuously attending flight schools under the noses of the US authorities, rather than, say, absolutely any other country in the world?

Because there are more flight schools in the US than anywhere else, and if you want to do some flying in US airspace, those are in the best position to teach how it works, what controls there are, how to avoid them, etc.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Sunday February 21, 2016 @08:08AM (#11144346)
The better to learn how US airspace worked?
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by ck2 on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:25AM (#11144575)
Everyone also forgets the twin towers were already successfully attacked several years earlier by a huge bomb in the basement.

Anything about the world trade center should have lit up intelligence reports like a christmas tree.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by s_q_b on Sunday February 21, 2016 @07:55AM (#11144310)
The NSA also had a tap on the Yemeni safe house where the attackers were calling to coordinate.

The hijackers even stayed in Laurel, Maryland, from which you can literally see Alpha and Bravo.

Yet the 9/11 commission only spent three visits and a paltry amount of time up at Fort Meade and NBP, anecdotally because the commute to the Fort is too long.

Edit in reply: No, they never put the intelligence together. See here for a not-terrible summary: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/01/13/the-al-qaeda-sw...

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Sunday February 21, 2016 @08:14AM (#11144362)
So did the NSA know what the attackers were going to do?

I find it very hard to imagine that the NSA and/or CIA would have let the attacks happen, even to protect key assets and methods. Maybe they had compromised some Mossad communication channel. Or maybe they had a double agent. But what would have been worth the risk to DC and NYC?

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by avs733 on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:47AM (#11144682)
Very much in the opinion space here...

To an extent, as with all big data systems, massive collection of data has both opportunities and risks. The risk in overcollection (e.g., the NSA type programs) is that you collect so much damn information that you are either behind in analyzing it or flat out never get there [1-2]. Combine that with (as others have noted) the lack of translators and you get what you got [3]. The old maxim* that not all data is information (DIKW) heavily applies here [4]. This whole phenomenon becomes especially problematic when you are spending all that time energy and money largely trying to predict 'black swan' events using what has happened before as what to look for in the future (e.g., the TSA as a whole or the NSA still focusing on cold war languages pre-9/11 [3]).

[1] http://www.zdnet.com/article/nsa-whistleblower-overwhelmed-w...

[2] http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/how-the-nsa-trie...

[3] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/31/lack-of-tran...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIKW_Pyramid

Edit: *fixed typo of maximum to maxim

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by toyg on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:33AM (#11144617)
More likely, they had taps but did not know what they were talking about. It was widely reported that, pre-9/11, Arabic translators were scarce in most Western intelligence services including the US, since their traditional focus were Russian, Eastern-European languages, and Chinese. You just need basic informal codes for most logistic purposes (which would be mostly "I've done this, I've done that" to confirm timings and prepare the next steps, rather than "I will hijack a plane and crash it into NYC" which would have been agreed beforehand) to make it very difficult for people who might not know all the intricacies and slang of regional Arabic varieties.

So the NSA might have known these people were learning to fly and maybe even preparing a hijack, but until 9/11 this was not dramatic -- if and when the hijack happened, they would have been expected to fly to Cuba or something and then dealt with. Pre-9/11, airplane hijacks had become rare since their '80s and '70s heydays, maybe there was some complacency (as in "yeah these guys will never manage it, and even if they do, we'll likely get most passengers back safely anyway, let them play"). Or at least that's what a sharp Occam's razor would suggest.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by dorfsmay on Sunday February 21, 2016 @10:07AM (#11144755)
Old style hijack had become rare because police forces around the world made sure that you couldn't come out a winner, you typically get killed. Hijacker are at a disadvantage: limited resources, stuck in a small space easy to surround.

The fact that the 9/11 highjackers had planned to die as part of the hijack was a game changer.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by matwood on Sunday February 21, 2016 @10:52AM (#11144932)
Exactly. A 9/11 style attack is also a single time event. Now that passengers know the outcome, they simply will not let it happen again. The only possible method would be to turn an existing pilot into a suicide killer.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by adrianN on Sunday February 21, 2016 @03:06PM (#11146201)
The reinforced doors they introduced after 9/11 make this strategy particularly good. The passengers can't do anything if the pilot decides that he has a death wish.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by DuskStar on Sunday February 21, 2016 @10:13PM (#11148179)
An example of such would be the Germanwings Flight 9525 crash from May 2015, where the copilot locked the cockpit door after the pilot left for a bathroom break and then flew into a mountain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by matwood on Monday February 22, 2016 @09:17AM (#11150886)
If the pilot has been compromised there is not much that can be done regardless of flight door strength.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by jsprogrammer on Sunday February 21, 2016 @03:09PM (#11146220)
Crashing highjacked planes was a known scenario. In fact, FOX broadcast a fictionalized scenario where a commercial airliner was highjacked and set on a crash course with the WTC about six months before 9/11/01.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by xbmcuser on Sunday February 21, 2016 @08:40PM (#11147779)
Tom Clancy's wrote a fictional book about lone mentally disturbed Japanese pilot flying a plane into the pentagon. I read it that book maybe a few weeks before 9/11. Was shocked that the US intelligence didnt see something like this happening when a fiction author did.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by s_q_b on Monday February 22, 2016 @07:08PM (#11155406)
Trying to recall the name, but I believe it was a decapitation strike on the Capitol during the State of the Union.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by dragonwriter on Monday February 22, 2016 @07:22PM (#11155464)
Debt of Honor.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Sunday February 21, 2016 @04:26PM (#11146621)
That needs a link.

I find http://911blogger.com/news/2013-05-16/hollywood-and-911-movi... but nothing there about anything broadcast on Fox.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by jsprogrammer on Sunday February 21, 2016 @04:56PM (#11146785)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Gunmen_(TV_series)#...

First episode: https://youtu.be/EjbQ-BDh4PU

Edit: the author of your link addresses the episode in the comments section, "The Lone Gunmen Pilot Episode", and says that the article you linked was only focused on things "in production" when the attack occurred.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by DrScump on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:48PM (#11148101)
Wow, I had forgotten that series (X-Files spinoff).

Vince Gilligan was an Executive Producer.

The actor playing the father, George Coe, was one of the original Not Ready for Prime Time Players on SNL, then later played Ben Cheviot on "Max Headroom".

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Monday February 22, 2016 @03:58AM (#11149492)
Thanks.

WTC was an iconic target, for sure.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:55AM (#11144708)
OK, that makes sense.

And maybe the NSA and CIA weren't talking, either.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by matwood on Sunday February 21, 2016 @10:49AM (#11144917)
I agree that it is extremely unlikely they let it happen. I think if all the documents are ever declassified it will be a case study in the breakdown of communications in a large organization. There was office politics (FBI vs. NSA vs. CIA), no overall coordination, and plain incompetence to name a few things that were wrong.

We see this all the time in large companies now, the difference is that rarely do people die as a consequence. Maybe the NASA Challenger accident is a comparable organizational breakdown.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by avs733 on Sunday February 21, 2016 @01:26PM (#11145714)
>I think if all the documents are ever declassified it will be a case study in the breakdown of communications in a large organization.

I have always been curious about this as an organizational phenomenon. What percentage of documents are classified for actual security reasons as opposed to things like embarrassing the country or allies, covering up misconduct or outright illegal conduct, or just as the default reaction. Study would be impossible/impractical even with access, but it sure would be interesting.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by mirimir on Sunday February 21, 2016 @10:14AM (#11144791)
This one?[0]

> Indeed, some of the C.I.A.’s best information about Al Qaeda came from the F.B.I. In 1998, F.B.I. investigators found an essential clue—a phone number in Yemen that functioned as a virtual switchboard for the terror network. The bombers in East Africa called that number before and after the attacks; so did Osama bin Laden. The number belonged to a jihadi named Ahmed al-Hada. By combing through the records of all the calls made to and from that number, F.B.I. investigators constructed a map of Al Qaeda’s global organization. The phone line was monitored as soon as it was discovered. But the C.I.A., as the primary organization for gathering foreign intelligence, had jurisdiction over conversations on the Hada phone, and did not provide the F.B.I. with the information it was getting about Al Qaeda’s plans.

So was the NSA also monitoring the Hada phone? Or maybe providing technical support for the CIA?

[0] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/07/10/the-agent

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by hackuser on Sunday February 21, 2016 @06:42PM (#11147290)
> The CIA ... very likely knew ...

They definitely knew something: A month before the attacks they gave President Bush a briefing titled: "Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike...

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by tootie on Sunday February 21, 2016 @09:41AM (#11144655)
The CIA most definitely knew and refused to share that information with the FBI.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/07/10/the-agent

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by prostoalex on Sunday February 21, 2016 @12:33PM (#11145421)
There's a good reason for lack of sharing as both Aldrich Ames (CIA) and Robert Hanssen (FBI) ended up providing much more sensitive information to the adversary than their rank qualified them for.

The agencies seem to be on the cycle of high compartmentalization -> criticism for lack of sharing -> low compartmentalization -> major spy scandal -> high compartmentalization.

Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by tootie on Sunday February 21, 2016 @11:15PM (#11148396)
Those guys committed treason by sharing with the Soviets. I don't see how that's relevant. The reason for the wall is because they have conflicting mandates.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by prostoalex on Monday February 22, 2016 @08:18AM (#11150565)
The natural response of each agency to prevent such massive information losses in the future is to limit the amount of information available, make it accessible only on the need-to-know basis, and introduce bureaucracy into the information retrieval process by keeping the logs and requiring sign-offs.
Re:Washington Should Prepare for Saudi Arabia's Collapse by kuschku on Sunday February 21, 2016 @07:40AM (#11144277)
Well, some of those pages have been leaked by the German Federal Intelligence Agency (BND), because some of the attackers lived in Germany before and it was a priority for them.

Funnily, one of the attackers used to have a small internet cafe in my city before he learned to fly an airplane.