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Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by alkonaut on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @10:42AM (#11110546)
Archiving things for future civilizations to dig up is one thing. Then you may be talking about hundreds or thousands of years that the data just sits there. Then you have to worry about the longevity of bits, and whether the technology and knowledge to read the data will exist in the future. Digital is very hard for that use case.

On the other hand, storing data for an active/continuously used archive doesn't seem so hard. You just keep the data digitally on some media and every few years you upgrade the tech to whatever technology and formats are "current" before the old format and tech is completely forgotten. Keeping digital data around for a decade is pretty easy. If you do that 100 times in a row you have kept it for a thousand years and you never had a file format or a storage media older than a decade. You could "forget" to upgrade the archive, but you could also "forget" to scribble on the calfs some time.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by chippy on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @12:56PM (#11111758)
The problem is not making sure you upgrade, nor is it about technology. It's identifying the things to keep without knowing the future.

50 years ago and all those letters that were burnt or composted because no one bothered to keep the sentimental letters of soldiers in a world war.

20 years later and all those millions of photos that were on Flickr but no one bothered to upgrade.

100 years later and all those GPS logs from taxi cabs that were logged by firms are lost as no one thought they would be interesting or useful.

600 years later and these floppy disks with meeting minutes on them about an early internet organization are lost but might well be worth more than they are now.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by jsprogrammer on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @02:23PM (#11112418)
Storage space gets cheaper and more voluminous by the day. Everything can be kept and tomorrow you can keep even more.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by rtkwe on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @03:06PM (#11112750)
It's not free though so every company with data makes decisions about what is worth saving. Sure the costs are always falling but you have to pay (at best) today's prices to store today's data.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by tptacek on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @04:41PM (#11113331)
Non-sequitur. The point of the thread is that it's not at all clear that reliable long-term storage is getting cheaper by the day.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by jsprogrammer on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @06:05PM (#11113831)
Define 'reliable long-term'.

Roll-over to new tech is safe. The content of discussion is inherently reliable due to its digital nature.

Keeping multiple copies is necessary practice and the long-time trend is that the next copy you produce has no greater cost than the previous copy (if you wait years, it will be significantly cheaper).

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by quanticle on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @04:06PM (#11113128)
>You just keep the data digitally on some media and every few years you upgrade the tech to whatever technology and formats are "current" before the old format and tech is completely forgotten.

"Just". Have fun justifying the cost of re-encoding and re-archiving all of the laws of the UK every few years. The advantage of vellum is that once it's written, that's it. You don't need to go back and re-encode and upgrade to the latest storage technology. It's there, and it'll last literally a thousand years if it's stored in a reasonably dry, cold, and dark location.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by alkonaut on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @05:46PM (#11113743)
How much is it? One hard drive, max. Write it on a few hard drives and move it to something else in 10 or 20 years before the standard is outdated. I doubt we won't be able to read text data any time soon. It's not handling itself but the risk of data loss feels at least as low as someone stealing or sabotaging a single physical document.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by DanBC on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @11:42AM (#11111076)
> You just keep the data digitally on some media and every few years you upgrade the tech to whatever technology and formats are "current" before the old format and tech is completely forgotten.

But you need to avoid the mistakes that people have already made: using some weird format that dies, and then having all your data locked away in a semi-readable file.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by carboncopy on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @12:14PM (#11111380)
What are these "weird formats" that keep getting referenced here? LZH? ARC? PKZIP? WordPerfect? Filesystems formatted in FAT16? All of these formats are still very much readable.

Some formats that are no longer usable in general, such as punch cards, were obsoleted consciously. And you might struggle to find a LaserDisc reader. Otherwise, we should be fine. Or am I missing something?

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by mwcampbell on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @04:17PM (#11113195)
Here's an example from Brian Moriarty's retrospective on the game "Loom" [1] in 2015, a mere 27 years after work on it began in 1988:

"The third disk here is the only known copy of the original design documents for Loom. It's an 800K Macintosh floppy employing a proprietary format readable only by a vintage Macintosh drive (thank you Apple). In preparing for this lecture, I obtained a dusty old Mac which had not been turned on since 1997. After reseating all the cables and boards I got it to boot and determined that the files on that disk are still intact and still fully readable. A few moments after making this happy discovery however, and before I could actually retrieve those files, the hard drive in the Mac crashed and died permanently. I'll recover the files eventually, but for now you'll have to rely on my failing memory for how Loom was conceived."

[1]: http://ludix.com/moriarty/loom.html (I transcribed the passage above from the video)

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by saalweachter on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @02:30PM (#11112476)
So I've got an HTML file and a PDF file, one was generated off the other. In the generated file, when I got to highlight some portions, I discover that it has been converted into a column format and it pastes wrong. It is easy to imagine that PDF being converted into a third format, and that conversion happening slightly wrong, from the aforementioned weirdness.

So imagine you have generations of digital files, converted from format to format to format. Why? Because software engineers are assholes who keep inventing new formats, for stupid goddamn reasons. A hundred generations from now, you'll be looking at copies of copies of copies which aren't just checksumable bit-wise copies but transcriptions, with transcription errors. If our descendants are lucky, all of those different versions will be preserved as well, but that just means that if you notice a possible transcription error, you'll have the opportunity to dig into two hundred year old character and file encodings to try to figure out what the original text was.

Which is not that different of a situation from trying to guess whether a scribe three copies ago misread the scribe four copies ago's atrocious f for a t.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by cooper12 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @03:27PM (#11121035)
Yeah converting from one format to another that isn't completely compatible might be an issue in the future. Even how to preserve websites isn't exactly intuitive because as you saw the conversion to PDF was faulty, and doing "file" > "save as" would not yield the same HTML because the browser modifies the DOM. We have to start using formats specifically designed for archiving such as WARC for webpages: http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000236.sht.... (relevant and interesting site in general, run by the Library of Congress)
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by nitrogen on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @12:48PM (#11111695)
Yes, you're missing the hindsight bias. People using punch cards and laserdiscs weren't warned ahead of time that things stored on them would become unretrievable soon after. Nobody knows in advance which formats/media will be "obsoleted consciously".
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by carboncopy on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:17PM (#11111900)
The overlap between punch cards and other formats was decades.

"During the 1960s, the punched card was gradually replaced as the primary means for data storage by magnetic tape, as better, more capable computers became available. ... [P]unched cards were still commonly used for data entry and programming until the mid-1980s when the combination of lower cost magnetic disk storage ... made punched cards obsolete ..."[1]

Yes, I listed wikipedia as a primary source, deal with it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by clock_tower on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @02:00PM (#11112247)
And remember, punch cards and laserdiscs are famous obsolete storage formats. What if you put your important information on an Iomega Jaz cassette, or stored it in a Bernoulli Box cartridge?
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by noselasd on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:56PM (#11112223)
You might end up in a situation like this:http://openmoko.soup.io/post/124162230/Harald-LaF0rge-Welte-... fast forward another 10 years, and that one particular situation might be worse still.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by DanBC on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:08PM (#11111836)
Try MS Excel for Mac v1 - those spreadsheets are going to be unfun to open. Or MS Works spreadsheets without MS Works.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by ars on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @04:10PM (#11113159)
I have lots of Apple II AppleWorks files on floppies.

I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to open them. I don't even have a way of getting them off the floppy.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by derefr on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @05:24PM (#11113597)
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by leesalminen on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @02:22PM (#11112407)
My dad still has a laser disc reader and 100s of discs. Sigh.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by brudgers on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:23PM (#11111946)
MUMPS.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by clock_tower on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:59PM (#11112241)
MUMPS still sees a lot of active use today -- and MUMPS databases store data in plaintext, in ways that tend to be pretty well-documented and relatively easy to understand. EBCDIC, Betamax, laserdisc, Zip drives, and HD-DVD are probably better examples.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by brudgers on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @04:17PM (#11113193)
With all those positives, would you use it?
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by clock_tower on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:06PM (#11119835)
Didn't you say that MUMPS is an obsolete or generally weird format, not that it's something you wouldn't use?

But yes, I use it, both professionally and personally. Legacy MUMPS is not pleasant -- the VA's code looks like someone left their telegraph out in the rain -- but the language is astonishingly good at string-handling, mostly due to certain constructs that make it very hard to translate into normal languages.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by theandrewbailey on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @12:55PM (#11111751)
We have a much better idea of what digital technologies and formats will last into the future than we did in the 1980s. Pick reasonably open formats and standards that have been around for a long time, and are used every day. HTML has been heavily used for more than 20 years, and it's only getting more widely used. UDF (the DVD file system) has been around for almost 20 years, and ISO 9660 (CD file system) even longer. Better yet: mix, match, and do all of them!
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by rayiner on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @12:11PM (#11111346)
I mean, what's a "weird format?" Did anyone anticipate EDBIC wouldn't survive into 2015?
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by michrassena on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:02PM (#11111797)
Off the cuff, I'd point to any format for which you'd have to fire up an emulator to run the software to read it. I would also include any format which is not openly documented or which requires a propriety tool to view it. When you look at archiving digital formats, you have to look at the whole toolchain and realize that the substrate of the medium itself will degrade, the electrical or magnetic field will degrade, the storage format will quickly become obsolete, the digital file format will be and so forth. More relevant to the discussion at hand, supposing you do intend to store important documents in a digital format as a long-term archive. What format do you store the instructions for reading and decoding the archive? Wouldn't carbon pigment on vellum be stable enough?

Edit: On further consideration, I think we have to regard digital media and formats like a form of encryption (a simile, I don't mean this literally) which gets stronger over time. Time will bury extant evidence of what is contained on the media and how it is stored. Why should not make the information as explicit (plain-text) as possible? People in 800 years will still have to spend their efforts decoding early 21st century English legalese.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by to3m on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @01:28PM (#11111994)
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by michrassena on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @03:16PM (#11112827)
I wonder if we'll look back at today's technology in 25 years and it will look as unpolished as that Acorn and laserdisc.
Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by InclinedPlane on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @03:43PM (#11112991)
"doesn't seem so hard" ... "you just"

Ah, the classic sign of someone about to say something rash about technology.

Re:Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum? by alkonaut on Tuesday February 16, 2016 @04:57PM (#11113432)
I thought the idea that it would be difficult was a misunderstanding of the task to begin with. No one is trying to archive digitally for a thousand years. That's hard. Archiving for 10 years is easy. As many times as you want.