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Re:Requiem for GitHub by PieterH on Sunday February 07, 2016 @12:03PM (#11053574)
Women fought for equal rights, for centuries, and achieved this towards the end of the last century, by any measure. Feminism won the fight for equality.

You are setting the clock back, and asking for women to be treated as fragile, vulnerable, and unable to look after themselves. You are arguing is that a woman's claim of harassment needs no evidence nor witnesses. That women are so weak that to place a burden of proof on them is "sexist rubbish."

Claims of harassment are easy to make. As we know, it is easy to destroy a career by making such claims. It is also trivial to record conversations on a mobile phone, to get incriminating emails, to get witnesses, to get DNA samples. This is no longer difficult. One no longer needs to believe anyone's word.

This is why you are being downvoted.

Allegations of rape or abuse or harassment, by men or women against men or women (and the gender is irrelevant) must involve law enforcement, due process, trial, and conviction as defined by law. Period. You and I are not qualified to second-guess the legal system. If you feel the law does not protect you, go live in a country without it.

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Re:Requiem for GitHub by PieterH on Sunday February 07, 2016 @12:18PM (#11053653)
Around one in five of women and one in 20 of men have been forced into sexual intercourse against their will, in their lifetime. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender.

To deny that sexual assault happens against men is to live half-blind. Sexual assault in all cases is about power and gratification by abusive individuals (spread equally among both sexes) against the vulnerable of either sex (and the gender matters little to them).

Edit: corrected the figures.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by kupaka on Sunday February 07, 2016 @12:34PM (#11053742)
>Around one in 20 of women and men equally, have been forced into sexual intercourse against their will, in their lifetime. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender.

That stat's not in that article.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by ta140604 on Sunday February 07, 2016 @01:07PM (#11053915)
That stat IS in that article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_females

"In a 2000 research article from the Home Office, in England and Wales, around 1 in 20 women (5%) said that they had been raped at some point in their life from the age of 16 beyond.[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males

"The same study found that approximately 1 in 21 men had been made to penetrate someone else, usually an intimate partner or acquaintance."

This is completely in line with original claim, "have been forced into sexual intercourse against their will". Wiki page does call this rape when it comes to women, but not when it comes to men.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by kupaka on Sunday February 07, 2016 @01:21PM (#11053979)
I don't think it's intellectually honest to mix and match stats from different studies to fit your worldview. The study that has the 1 in 21 stat for men who have been forced to penetrate also says that 1 in 5 women have been raped.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a...

Re:Requiem for GitHub by PieterH on Sunday February 07, 2016 @02:04PM (#11054218)
I didn't see the full study. Thanks for pointing me to it. Indeed the figures are higher for women than for men. Let me edit my comment to reflect that.
Re:Requiem for GitHub by drhayes9 on Sunday February 07, 2016 @12:10PM (#11053616)
> Feminism won the fight for equality.

Citation needed. By nearly any measure I can think of, women's political and professional lives are dominated by men's ideas and policies to an absurd degree.

Asking for consideration of others' differences is not putting the clock back -- we weren't even having the conversation a few decades ago. Talking about the nuances of that discussion now is not regression.

> Claims of harassment are easy to make.

Again, citation needed. It's not like someone can say the word "harassment" and then distance themselves from anything that happens afterwards and be free of all consequences. Since we're talking about GitHub specifically, how easy do you think it's been for Julie Ann Horvath to find a job? Regardless of whether I happen to believe her or not, the fact of her statement doomed her career among the more mainline professional networks of Silicon Valley. She's radioactive now. So, I wouldn't call that "easy" by any stretch.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by tzs on Sunday February 07, 2016 @01:50PM (#11054138)
> Since we're talking about GitHub specifically, how easy do you think it's been for Julie Ann Horvath to find a job?

It doesn't look like she's had too much difficulty on the employment front, based on her LinkedIn profile. The same month she left GitHub she got a job as Senior Designer and Web Developer (same title as she had at GitHub) at &yet in Seattle. When she left that job there was a 4 month gap and then she was Head of Design at Clef in Oakland. She left them at the end of 2015 and started the new year as a Senior User Experience Designer at Apple.

I don't think we can infer anything about job finding difficulty from that 4 month gap between &yet and Clef, because she moved from Seattle back to the Bay Area sometime in or near that gap, and it is not uncommon for people to take some time off between jobs when changing cities.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by drhayes9 on Sunday February 07, 2016 @02:30PM (#11054356)
As I've pointed out elsewhere: the original claim was "...[c]laims of harassment are easy to make". Are you voting that they are "easy"?

Here is an anonymous hit-piece written about Horvath and posted on Medium: https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/facts-conveniently-withheld-d...

I'm not saying she was forever un-employable. But I am saying that like any other whistleblower in any other industry decrying her accusation as "easy" is an insult to what she went through.

EDIT: Hell, there's a flagged comment on this branch that proves my point: "If someone pulled those kind of stunts on you, I think your sympathy over their career would be limited also."

Re:Requiem for GitHub by tzs on Sunday February 07, 2016 @03:23PM (#11054626)
> As I've pointed out elsewhere: the original claim was "...[c]laims of harassment are easy to make". Are you voting that they are "easy"?

I'm not "voting" on anything, nor even offering an opinion on that particular aspect of your discussion with the poster above you.

You posed a specific question: "Since we're talking about GitHub specifically, how easy do you think it's been for Julie Ann Horvath to find a job?". I was curious enough to spend a few minutes looking at her LinkedIn and then a couple other public things of hers (a Medium article and her Twitter profile) to try to get an idea what the answer was to that one specific question from your comment.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by drhayes9 on Sunday February 07, 2016 @04:38PM (#11054993)
Sorry, I read it as an attack on the argument as a whole rather than a straight fact-check. I knew her employment situation when I wrote the comment and thought the factual citations were refutations instead of context.

So yeah: I'm sorry I jumped down your throat for trying to add to the discussion.

Re:Requiem for GitHub by merpnderp on Sunday February 07, 2016 @05:46PM (#11055335)
Can you give a few examples of women's political and professional lives being dominated by men's ideas and policies to an absurd degree?
Re:Requiem for GitHub by merpnderp on Sunday February 07, 2016 @08:03PM (#11055860)
Lol so self evident anyone who asks for an example is downvoted.
Re:Requiem for GitHub by PieterH on Sunday February 07, 2016 @01:08PM (#11053918)
She works as a senior designer at Apple.
Re:Requiem for GitHub by drhayes9 on Sunday February 07, 2016 @01:45PM (#11054105)
Good for her! How does this continue the discussion?
Re:Requiem for GitHub by PieterH on Sunday February 07, 2016 @02:16PM (#11054281)
It negates the theory that harassment whistle blowers are unemployable. In that respect, it does not continue this particular discussion, it ends it.
Re:Requiem for GitHub by drhayes9 on Sunday February 07, 2016 @02:23PM (#11054317)
That's a cute rhetorical point you've made, but I think the evidence for whistleblowers torpedoing their careers in the name of personal justice is pretty overwhelming. The fact of her eventual employment doesn't undo the damage she did to her career by making an accusation -- which is the point I was addressing from the original comment that "...[c]laims of harassment are easy to make".
Re:Requiem for GitHub by factsandstuff on Sunday February 07, 2016 @12:32PM (#11053733)
There have been github staff that have shared what they see as more of the story.

https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/facts-conveniently-withheld-d...

If someone pulled those kind of stunts on you, I think your sympathy over their career would be limited also.