Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by Riod on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:06PM (#11045363)

Except Tesla licenses their battery tech from Panasonic. Says so in the 10-K. Anyone else is free to make a deal with Panasonic

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by dragontamer on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:22PM (#11045452)

Tesla has their own battery technology. But the chemistry belongs to Panasonic, who creates cells.

You combine cells (like the 18650) together to create batteries. The Gigafactory is trying to make 26650 cells, which should be more efficient in cars than the 18650 cells (which were originally designed for laptops)

Tesla's use of 18650 was highly innovative. They "hacked" growth into their company by taking advantage of the scale and scope of laptop manufacturers. But now that TSLA is one of the largest users of Lithium Ion in the world, they need to come up with a more efficient, car-specific cell design now.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by Riod on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:27PM (#11045484)

That's exactly it. They haven't yet. Right now what they do is assembly. Look up what Chanos said about Tesla.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by danhak on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:29PM (#11045493)

I don't believe that's true. Could you please paste the pertinent text from the 10-K? I was not able to find it.

As far as I know the cell chemistry in use was developed jointly and I believe Tesla holds patent although I'm not able to find a source at the moment.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by dragontamer on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:47PM (#11045600)

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-and-panasonic-collabo...

> “Being selected by Tesla to provide cells for their current and next- generation EV battery pack is a tremendous validation of Panasonic’s nickel-based chemistry and the extensive investments Panasonic continues to make in lithium ion R&D and production,” said Naoto Noguchi, President of Panasonic Energy Company.

TSLA patents are in regards to batteries: collections of cells working together. But the Lithium needs to be turned into a cell... before collections of cells can turn into a battery.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by danhak on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:56PM (#11045657)

The link you posted is from 2010--roadster days. The cells used in the roadster are not the same as those in the Model S. And Model 3 will be using new cells as well.

There's been immense R&D by both parties since 2010, and the latest supply agreement was finalized July 2014.

I'm hoping for something a little more formal than a PR blurb--like an SEC filing as grandparent alluded to.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by dragontamer on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:58PM (#11045664)

Not really. 18650 cells are still being deployed by TSLA. The hypothetical Gigafactory 26650 cells aren't out yet.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/panasonic-backs-teslas-gigafac...

But considering the $1.6 Billion investment from Panasonic, it looks like Panasonic owns at least half of the gigafactory. This suggests that Panasonic still owns the cell technology / chemistry.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by danhak on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:12PM (#11045746)

18650 refers to the cell form factor--the size and shape--and has nothing to do with the chemistry inside. It's like saying two PC motherboards are the same because they're both ATX.

The cells in the original roadster were 3.7 V / 2100 mAh vs. 3.6 V / 3100 mAh for the latest. They're both 18650 cells--completely different chemistry.

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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by makomk on Saturday February 06, 2016 @05:23AM (#11047202)

More specifically, Tesla's shipping Panasonic NCR16850A cells with Panasonic's newish LiNiCoO2 chemistry - same as in a lot of more modern laptop batteries. The Roadster was presumably one of their older cells like the CGR18650.

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