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Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by sremani on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:16PM (#11045055)
First of Tesla stock is down because Detroit Auto Show has put a steady stream of EVs and PHEVs. At least in the immediate future Tesla is not going to own the low-end market. They are still executing their high-end. On battery side, LGChem and Samsung are doing great job and Tesla battery chemistry is neither that different or superior to them, so there is absolutely no differentiation there.

Tesla stock is over priced, once the German Luxuries esp. BMW arm themselves with batteries there is going to be stupendous completion that would not justify their market value. On top of this, you have Apple getting into the think of things, at least rumors of it.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by vvanders on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:23PM (#11045107)
Remember when BMW couldn't update their cars with auto-park after the regulators gave to go head? I'm not all that worried about Tesla.

Their competencies are in Software and the Supercharger/Battery Infra. No one is going to come close to that in 5-10 years at a minimum.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by sremani on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:47PM (#11045257)
5-10 ? When it comes to infrastructure Tesla is no way ahead by 5 years. Auto-pilot perhaps they may have deployment advantage given that they have only 2 models and (pre 2014 models of S wont get auto-pilot too). Greatly exaggerated, TSLA is a wonderful company and vision but their market cap is way way off, for what they do.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:48PM (#11045262)
Can you point me to another auto manufacturer's free charging network?

> 595 Supercharger stations with 3,465 Superchargers

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

This doesn't include destination chargers at hotels, restaurants, and other establishments.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by sremani on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:05PM (#11045355)
GM will be rolling out with Bolt EV, primarily that would be any GM dealership. I really do not know about the count, but it is interesting place to start. The way forward would be to rope in utilities like NRG(which already has lot of charging stations) to provide the backbone for the system. As days go by it looks like the major car companies are in agreement with their plug standards. The other aspect is free charging is not promised by Tesla on Model 3. So cannot take into consideration for Bolt EV infrastructure.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:06PM (#11045364)
Right. No existing infrastructure, just cobbled together dealership charging stations. No autopilot in the Bolt. No OTA software updates (in the US, at least), as it violates the franchise agreement with dealerships. No high-voltage DC charging such that a Supercharger can offer (just the designed-by-committee CHAdeMO junk).

That's why Tesla is 5 years ahead.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by sremani on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:59PM (#11045667)
Tesla started putting out super chargers in 2011, even in 2013 it was anemic and nothing outside of their traditional bastions, from mid 2013 is when they ramped things up and have currently put out there. So 2 years. On Auto-Pilot front Audi, Volvo and Mercedes(these guys have a truck on auto-pilot) are out there and they are not lagging in pure technical terms, as I said deployment wise they have to do the ground work. It does not matter CHAdeMO is supercharger a 20-30 minute fast charging is NOT ideal(too much wait and too much screwing the battery), and people should be looking for better solutions.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:24PM (#11045792)
Fine. Let's say any legacy automaker can deploy an entire network in 2-3 years. When does that start? Will it be starting soon?
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by vvanders on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:39PM (#11045858)
Having used both chademo and supercharging extensively they are totally not the same.

One is 1/3rd the speed of the other in real-world usage.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by OopsCriticality on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:51PM (#11045905)
Chademo charges a Leaf (or similar class car) to 80% in around the same time as SuperCharger does for a Tesla Model S, doesn't it?
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by vvanders on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:58PM (#11045932)
If you want 100 miles of range, sure.

I can tell you charging chademo on a Model S is much slower.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by OopsCriticality on Friday February 05, 2016 @08:17PM (#11046008)
Of course, but Chademo isn't designed for a Model S, it's designed for more affordable cars with smaller capacity batteries. The market requirement for both a Leaf and Model S DC fast-charge is the same: charge to roughly 80% capacity in 30 minutes.

As I said elsewhere, the Chademo connector can support higher currents when there is a need. When there are Leafs (and Souls? I think think those are the only two in the US on Chademo) with 200mi range batteries, I'm sure we'll see the existing chargers upgraded to the higher current capability.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by vvanders on Friday February 05, 2016 @08:25PM (#11046037)
You sure about that? When the model s chademo adapter came out Teslas were breaking chademo stations left & right because they weren't engineered to handle 25min @ 45kw.

I'm not aware of and chademos above 60kw today while Tesla has a while infrastructure deployed right now.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by vvanders on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:48PM (#11045603)
Nissan has tried this with the Leaf and hit hasn't worked well. Dealerships aren't incentivized to provide charging and I don't see that changing.

Also there is no currently deployed charging standard that comes closer to SuperCharger. Chademo is 60kW spec but usually 40 or 50 depending on how downrated the charger has been. I've never seen less than 118kW on a Supercharger and had multiple Chademo's that have throttled down to 35kW in some cases.

It's going to take years to build out that infrastructure while Telsa continues to deploy SuperChargers and Destination Charging.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by OopsCriticality on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:50PM (#11045902)
> Also there is no currently deployed charging standard that comes closer to SuperCharger. Chademo is 60kW spec but usually 40 or 50 depending on how downrated the charger has been. I've never seen less than 118kW on a Supercharger and had multiple Chademo's that have throttled down to 35kW in some cases.

Chademo deliberately selected 50kW as being optimal given the cars using the charger and the infrastructure available; the connector is designed for up to 200A (up from 125A at present) which would yield 100kW.[0] My understanding is that the CCS connector is being deployed at 200A now. I don't know what you're definition of "close to" is, but I would consider 100kW and 118kW to be close.

[0] http://www.chademo.com/wp/technology/optimal/

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by prostoalex on Saturday February 06, 2016 @11:01PM (#11051537)
Business model for a dealership involves buying a lot of cheap land on the outskirts to provide space for a giant parking lot, a service station, room for all the trucks to load and unload, etc. Space around them is usually bought by other dealers, so it can be branded as an auto mall. In most cities you usually have to go out of your usual route to visit a dealership.

Tesla superchargers require less real estate footprint and are next to freeways and frequently next to Starbucks and some casual restaurants.

[deleted]
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:10PM (#11045392)
Autopilot hardware costs under $1K. Of course its getting the required cameras and ultrasound sensors. Even if you don't pay for the autopilot feature, it contributes to the 40 million/miles/month of Autopilot data Tesla is collecting.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by jernfrost on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:31PM (#11045829)
I think people greatly exaggerate how easy it is to catch up to Tesla for an established player. GM, Ford, BMW, Mercedes might have 100 years of deep knowledge in ICE engine design an manufacture. But that knowledge is worth nothing with an electric car which is completely different. Tesla is the company with the longest experience here. Not only that but they changed the fundamentals about how you build a car. They make most stuff in house and have very quick turn over times. They can do tweaks in 5 minutes which the competitors require a month to change due to the reliance large number of external suppliers. The competition is weighted down by legacy requirements. They need to build common platforms which can be used for both their ICE and electric cars. Tesla has no such concerns to worry about.

Tesla has a simple streamlined operation: They do almost everything in house and they only have to focus on electric cars. No other distractions.

They also have a sort of hidden weapon in the form of SpaceX. They have higher expertise than any other car maker on working aluminum from reusing the knowledge gained from SpaceX. Elon Musk can trickle down a lot of know how from his SpaceX operation. Most car companies are not using synergies from spaceship companies :-D

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:40PM (#11045217)
I look forward to Tesla releasing self-driving ridesharing in the next few years. Can't afford a Tesla? Pay per ride!
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by matheweis on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:03PM (#11045344)
That won't be from Tesla, but rather from Uber. They poached Carnegie Mellon's entire robotics department, among others to focus on this goal.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @06:14PM (#11045414)
Under circumstances, possibly, if they're not sued out of business first.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by prostoalex on Sunday February 07, 2016 @02:43AM (#11052100)
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Monday February 08, 2016 @12:57PM (#11059671)
http://www.techinsider.io/elon-musk-hints-tesla-may-enter-ri...

Tesla CEO Elon Musk seemingly confirmed on Tuesday that the company is working on a strategy for getting into transportation services.

During Tesla’s third-quarter earnings conference call, Musk was asked if the company was planning to get into an Uber-like business. Musk tried to keep mum, but when pressed he hinted that the company was at least entertaining the idea.

“There is a right time to make announcements and this is not that time,” Musk said during the call.

He added that the strategy for such a service was not yet “fully-baked,” which implies the company does in fact have some semblance of a strategy.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:19PM (#11045068)
> BMW arm themselves with batteries

Tesla will be consuming 2013's entire world production of lithium batteries in ~2 years. Please, enlighten me, where is BMW going to source cells from? Where will you find these youth drivers who don't want autopilot, and prefer "the ultimate driving experience"?

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by sjm-lbm on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:26PM (#11045127)
BMW will get "youth drivers" exactly the same place it currently gets them: nowhere, because those people don't buy BMWs.

BMW's goal in EVs is to hold on to the segment of the market that they have. Tesla's goal is to capture a market that they don't currently have - and that's harder. It's much harder when they have many legitimate competitors, and it is starting to look like they will have much more competition very soon.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by toomuchtodo on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:27PM (#11045135)
Tesla is already starting to consume much of the luxury segment:

http://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/15/1-large-luxury-car-in-us...

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by dogma1138 on Friday February 05, 2016 @07:13PM (#11045752)
This isn't the most correct analysis, the cares are comparable in price but not in the actual category the Tesla is anything but a Luxury car as far as the internals go, it is currently a hip status symbol just like the iPhone was (and is) but it could just as much turn out to be an iWatch down the line.

Tesla doesn't publish very detailed sales figures and there isn't that market research into it (at least public one) yet, currently it seems that many people are buying a Tesla as a second (or even 3rd, 4th etc ;)) car as people who can afford to buy a 100,000$ car usually will have more than 1.

From anecdotal experience I've also noticed that quite a few of the people who buy through finance / lease a Tesla really can't afford one but like many people who end up buying a 800$ phone do - simply because it makes them feel better.

Tesla owners currently enjoy quite a bit of perks that traditional car owners do not, the insurance rates tend to be quite preferable (most likely partially subsidized by Tesla it self), the finance options are also one of the best in the market (In the UK I can pretty much get a 100% finance on a Tesla which costs about my yearly pre-tax income, considering the cost of living and the taxes I pay I would technically will not be able to afford it, I can't get any thing close to this for other cars which cost 100K GBP for example), this is not that dissimilar than how Apple pushed a very expensive handset at the time through their partnered carriers but phones aren't cars so it yet to be seen how it will work out.

Most Tesla owners haven't owned the car for longer than a year atm, the average life span of a car in the US is still about 10 years, there isn't enough data currently to know how the Tesla secondary market will work out (the current "secondary" market sells cars that are usually couple of months in use for almost the same price as a new one), what will the end TCO of a Tesla be after say 5 years to both the end consumer and the company.

Luxury cars in the US have a very well established secondary market with buy backs and dealerships that specialize in reselling cars that tend to hold the value quite well (this is especially true to the more boutique cars like Jags). Some cars are have also very specific markets in the US (and any where else) e.g. while pretty much anyone will want to drive a BMW 5/7 series or a high end Audi not that many people will go for a Jag or a range rover these days.

Tesla has had a very good market penetration but it's really too early to tell what it means, and with a large part of it's costumers buying it because it's cool and because of it's environment impact (or lack there off) could also quite likely look at other EV options when some actually arrive on the market.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by prostoalex on Sunday February 07, 2016 @03:03AM (#11052134)
I urge you to price a similar car from a luxury brand (so Acura, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Nissan, Infiniti and maybe Cadillac) with similar feature set (specifically all safety packages, lane-tracking and self-parking packages where available) and see what you come up with.

Fully loaded versions are very expensive because luxury manufacturers feel they can charge whatever they want and get away with it. Those things cost a pretty penny - a navigation system add-on in BMW, for example, is just under $2k (as if you'd buy a luxury vehicle without navigation system in 2016). A backup camera from Mercedes is optional even in "luxury" edition of their vehicle, and is $770. Blind Spot Monitor is another $750.

And we excluded ultra-luxury sporty manufacturers like Maserati, Ferrari and Lamborghini, as they represent comparatively tiny segment of the luxury market. However, "performance" versions of Acura, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and even Nissan (GT-R) and Chevrolet (Corvette), if that's what you're after, are priced above "performance" versions of Model S.

Then there're the maintenance costs, more or less mandatory at dealer prices if you ever want to sell your car for decent resale value. Then subscriptions for things like maps, navigation and XM real-time traffic. Then, of course, the cost of gas - even if you assume oil falls down to $0 (perhaps a free tank of gas with a purchase of a hot dog at the gas station, if current price trends persist), you're still getting pretty close on the TCO front for 4-5 years.

Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by sremani on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:26PM (#11045131)
Samsung SDI is providing BMW with Battery. GM is getting it from LGChem. The whole myth of Tesla being the Apple of Car Battery supplies is just that myth.
Re:Tesla's Model X Was a Mistake by voodoomagicman on Friday February 05, 2016 @05:44PM (#11045239)
It doesn't seem like a myth at all - tesla could be the Apple in that its vertically integrated w/ a tightly controlled supply chain and an ecosystem producing lock-in (superchargers), capturing the high end of the market and most of the profit in the industry.

GM and BWM would be the android device manufacturers - assembling 3rd party components, poorly differentiated, initially not competitive on quality but eventually catching up, while competition w/ each other prevents any of them from achieving profits comparable to Tesla.