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Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by nazgulnarsil on Thursday February 04, 2010 @02:44PM (#1101388)
trying to paint those statistics as negative is hilarious on the articles part. we have insane mobility compared to any other society at any time in human history.
Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by eru on Thursday February 04, 2010 @03:53PM (#1101579)
While our situation is quite good (and in absolute term probably the best ever), I doubt that we (=US 2010?) have "insane mobility" --- measured in actual turnover between quantiles of wealth from one generation to the next.

Does anybody have some sources? (I'd guess it would be interesting to look at societies in great turmoil (e.g. England after 1066, French Revolution, Communist revolution in China) or societies with more equality of wealth than the US (e.g. Scandinavian countries). They may well have more mobility (at least in a purely technical sense).)

Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by guelo on Thursday February 04, 2010 @04:10PM (#1101615)
You are right, mobility in the US is not what conservatives think it is.

Sources: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/b1579981.html "By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States.

From The Economist, http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2005/01/the_economist_o.ht... "would-be Horatio Algers are finding it no easier to climb from rags to riches, while the children of the privileged have a greater chance of staying at the top of the social heap."

Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by Perceval on Thursday February 04, 2010 @09:40PM (#1102487)
>Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark.

As far as I can tell, that study measured mobility by quintile. If the United States has a wider variance in income, the quintiles will be much wider, hence more difficult to move from one quintile to another.

It seems reasonable to assume that the social welfare states of Western Europe and Canada have less variance in income distribution, and therefore it's easier to move from one quintile to another because the quintiles are smaller. Saying that there's greater mobility between quintile in Western Europe really only reflects the smaller variance in incomes in Western Europe.

To set up an accurate cross-national comparison, one would have to construct a unified set of incomes for all people across all the studies countries. Then measure mobility of individuals between quintiles of the unified data set. Only that type of design would control for the different variance found in different national-economic contexts.

Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by nazgulnarsil on Thursday February 04, 2010 @04:38PM (#1101683)
who mentioned national lines? I don't regard imaginary lines with much respect. we're talking worldwide here.
Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by gjm11 on Thursday February 04, 2010 @05:32PM (#1101843)
Who mentioned national lines? (1) The original article, which was talking about, e.g., the chances of moving out of the top or bottom 10% by wealth of US society. (2) The person you were replying to (you can tell he was talking about the US by, e.g., comparing his figures for the $250k proposal to the US population, though I think he misunderstood the proposal). (3) The two people who replied to you.

Or, in other words, apparently everyone else in this thread apart from you. How is one supposed to tell that "we have insane mobility compared to any other society at any time in human history" was meant to mean everyone, worldwide?

Indeed, how can that possibly be true (what do you think is the mobility rate out of the poorest 10% of the world population?), or make sense (given that it requires that you regard, say, the US, China, Afghanistan and Burundi as parts of a single "society")?

Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by nazgulnarsil on Thursday February 04, 2010 @06:17PM (#1101972)
I stand by my statement. the world, on net, has more income mobility now than at any time in the past. everyday is pretty much the best day the world has ever seen from a net welfare standpoint.
Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by gjm11 on Thursday February 04, 2010 @09:42PM (#1102493)
Would you care to present your evidence that the world has more income mobility now than at any time in the past?

(And, FWIW, I am still having grave difficulty believing that you really meant "the world" when you said "we".)

Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by eru on Thursday February 04, 2010 @08:18PM (#1102319)
For the whole world you may be right today. That why I put the question mark in my comment. (Lots of people here are from the US and assume everyone is.)

I do agree that measured by income the world has entered a golden age. But I do not know whether mobility in income quantiles is at its peak: You can have a lot of mobility at a very low level of income, too. And in the stone age people were probably more alike in income, so that quantiles were closer together and more easily shuffled just by random changes. (Not that this is a good or bad thing per se.)

Re:Born Poor? Santa Fe economist Samuel Bowles says you bet... by pln on Thursday February 04, 2010 @04:22PM (#1101640)
Untrue, compared to both previous decades in the US, and other nations today.