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Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by Retric on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:04PM (#10934005)
Apple is just using another approach to having power users and novices using the same UI. How many people started by using a mouse for Edit (copy) before using, [Alt] [E]dit (copy), then Ctrl-C all in one step. Yes, you need to memorize Ctrl-C, but that's not a long term issue. The same is true of touch interfaces, you can use them knowing few shortcuts and slowly add more over time.

People spend hours a day interacting with a computer in one form or another, they will memorize things.

PS: Remember getting annoyed when Microsoft when gaga over the 'ribbon' concept? I bet you don't think about that one much anymore.

Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by jdietrich on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @06:03PM (#10934784)
Keyboard shortcuts have good discoverability in most applications, because they're listed alongside the drop-down menu options. If you use Edit->Copy a lot, you can see in the menu that there's a keyboard shortcut.

Many of Apple's UI interactions can only be discovered through guesswork or reading the docs. If you open Launchpad often, nothing alerts you to the fact that there's a touchpad gesture for that. Unlabeled icons are rife in iOS and there is no discovery mechanism equivalent to a tooltip.

Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by Retric on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @06:34PM (#10934964)
Windows OS is full of shortcuts that are non obvious ex: Windows + E or even the classic Alt + Tab.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by andrepd on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @08:26PM (#10935427)
Exactly. GP has a good point, but it's a problem not exclusive to Apple.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by tripzilch on Sunday January 24, 2016 @09:23AM (#10962554)
> If you use Edit->Copy a lot, you can see in the menu that there's a keyboard shortcut.

You can. And I do. And given your post, I assume you do too.

But did you know that most people don't?

I teach people computer skills (a lot of children, ages 8-12, but other ages as well). Only the very clever ones (those we can expect to welcome on HN in a couple of years ;-) ) figure it out by themselves. You'd be surprised of the in-your-face stuff people simply do not read on the screen. I then point it out, but it's about 50/50 whether they'll pick up the habit.

And it's the same thing with this interface the author has designed. It's all intuitions about how he uses computers, how people like him use computers, and how the self-selected group of feedback-providers use computers. Nothing about the general public. No research, no tests, no reference to classic UX textbooks and theory.

Now if he had stated upfront that those three categories are actually the only intended target audience, then at least he would have acknowledged that this is a possible problem, up-front. Not doing so, it appears he hasn't given much thought to it.

So, sorry but what I see is not a user interaction designer, but a graphics designer with a cute hobby.

If you think that's harsh, imagine he'd have redesigned the user interface of your car. Would you trust the ideas reading only about mockups and "intuitive" justifications? Wouldn't you think, mm-mm yes nice ideas but until you actually tested them on a focus group they could go anywhere and further effort is pretty much wasted until you do. What if you assume his driving style is rather different from yours?

Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by shkkmo on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @06:18PM (#10934882)
The lack of discoverability extends to OSX's keyboard shortcuts as well. I completely changed how I work after I discovered 'Command Tab' and 'Command ~'
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by falcolas on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @10:39AM (#10938765)
The discoverability is there, but not in the wild of the OS; it's in the Settings panel. Better yet, it's configurable (and powerful).

    Settings > Keyboard > Shortcuts > Keyboard
Ditto that for the touchpad (including animated examples)

    Settings > Trackpad > ...
Perhaps we as power users are just used to not having to visit these locations?
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by shkkmo on Tuesday January 26, 2016 @03:01PM (#10975590)
Those are actually precisely where I discovered a bunch of OSX's shortcuts. I think this was around the time I configured the two finger right click to make playing Minecraft without an external mouse feasible.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by dingo_bat on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @08:48PM (#10935511)
To this day, I have not figured out how to switch to another desktop on my Macbook Air using a keyboard shortcut. To be fair, I use it very rarely.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by Zarel on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @08:57PM (#10935551)
I'm pretty sure the default is Ctrl+Left and Ctrl+Right, but I've customized it so many times I can't be completely sure.

OS X actually allows a lot of customization. You assign a keyboard shortcut to any menu item in System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Shortcuts -> App Shortcuts.

Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by twoodfin on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @08:57PM (#10935546)
Control-Left|Right Arrow.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by dingo_bat on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @09:05PM (#10935586)
Gotta try it when I bring it out next. Thanks!
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by christoph on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @07:27PM (#10935181)
It's amazing how buried some of these are. Nothing tops print screen for me - Cmd + shift + 3 for the whole screen or Cmd + shift + 4 for the selection option...
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by fallenhitokiri on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @02:59AM (#10936607)
My absolute favorite is cmd + shift + 3 - release - space to take a shot of a single window. Maybe it's the release part between 3 buttons and pressing space, but that shortcut is always wired to use for me.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by Kexoth on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @07:26AM (#10937584)
I didn't knew this one, it's awesome, but it's with 4 instead of 3 :)
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by XorNot on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:24PM (#10934165)
I think about that one constantly, in the v sense that it motivated me to ditch Office as much as possible (I mostly use LibreOffice these days)
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by Retric on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @04:53PM (#10934380)
Sure, if you avoid a product then you’re going to get stuck in the 'novice user' trap. IMO, the problem with a lot of these designs is they were created by and for frequent users. I remember Photoshop at being incredibly opaque to start, but you can also get used to it surprisingly quickly while regularly learning new things.
Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by XorNot on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @01:54AM (#10936443)
Not sure what you're getting at? The ribbon breaks office for frequent users. Around office 2003 I could have files, fonts, formatting and review all on the same amount of screen real estate as the ribbon.

This was invaluable when working on complex documents. Post ribbon all that's forcibly broken up across multiple tabs. Instead I get giant buttons for functions I don't use permanently taking up space, rather the. An efficient array of those I do.

Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by Retric on Wednesday January 20, 2016 @08:50AM (#10938004)
You can still create custom ribbons. Screen real estate should be at slightly less premium now, so even if it's slightly worse I don't see that as a big deal.

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Customize-the-ribbo...

Re:Desktop Neo – rethinking the desktop interface for produc... by johnzabroski on Tuesday January 19, 2016 @06:07PM (#10934810)
Alan Kay's criticisms are much more damning.