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Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by Balgair on Monday January 11, 2016 @02:15PM (#10882498)
The issue is that we do not have the full data set. We only see those cases where the NSA fails and select cases of success. Most successes, if there are any, are hidden to maintain secrecy in operations. I'm not saying there are any successes. What successes we do see are ones that are 'scrubbed' of intelligence or were made with intel that is now known to be useless and only then years after the fact. Again, if there are any successes to begin with. To make an educated conclusion, we need the facts, something we cannot have. Things could be worse or better, we do not know.
Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by lvs on Monday January 11, 2016 @02:21PM (#10882545)
This is a fatally utilitarian response. You want to be able to calculate whether an equilibrium lies between good and bad outcomes of a process. That is a somewhat defeatist analysis to make because it implicitly denies the gaping moral and ethical risks of the system.
Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by Balgair on Monday January 11, 2016 @03:20PM (#10883138)
Yes, completely. But to make an assessment of moral risks, you have to have the data. Something we are unlikely to get. Everything else is just conjecture, perhaps well founded and correct, but still conjecture. Perhaps then the issue is with over classification of intel, not the people in charge. We may never know as a consequence.

edit: In the end, it is reasonable to assume we do not have adequate data on the successes of these programs. 2 paths then arise. 1) Then you wait for more data. 2) You examine those people that you reasonably know to have access and take a look at their moral history and actions to determine the ethical issues; it's the only somewhat good data you can add to the set to maybe get a conclusion.

Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by lvs on Monday January 11, 2016 @03:59PM (#10883467)
No, you're missing my point by saying "you have to have the data," and it appears that you are missing some fundamental concepts in normativity.

You do not need data to make a moral argument based upon principle. There is no conjecture involved. (You could read some Kant on this, if you like.) You need data only to determine a particular consequentialist ethics that involves a balance of good and bad outcomes often understood in lay terms as "effectiveness." I think most commenters here would agree that effectiveness is the wrong way to evaluate this system, since epistemologically we cannot know its effectiveness. (... Although many doubt it could ever be truly effective in the presence of creative adversaries.) We can only know that is it categorically wrong.

Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by ArkyBeagle on Monday January 11, 2016 @07:36PM (#10884759)
Morally and ethically, the NSA is still accountable to Congress. If anything really big surfaces, they'll receive all manner of unwanted attention, and if it's big enough, no bleats about security will suffice - the committee that does oversight will be invested of quite extraordinary powers.
Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by tptacek on Monday January 11, 2016 @02:36PM (#10882720)
Do you disagree with 'btilly or are you saying you're agnostic?
Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by Balgair on Monday January 11, 2016 @03:25PM (#10883191)
I'm saying it is possible that successes are hidden for real reasons and that we are biased by only seeing the flaws and failures. There may be a morally correct reason for all this nonsense. I'm not saying I agree with what I wrote, but that there is that possibility.

The issue with this idea is that it is a tautology. You can neither prove it nor deny it from the outside where the public sits. You simply do not have the access to the data and cannot reveal it. Those that have pay a heavy price.

What then? You have to take Occam's razor, that the simplest explanation is the correct one. Combine this with Hanlon's razor to not attribute to conspiracy what you can reasonably contribute to stupidity, and you may have an answer that passes the sniff test.

Re:Why NSA Surveillance Scares Me by ErikVandeWater on Monday January 11, 2016 @06:00PM (#10884290)
This does not undermine your point, but perhaps we also miss some failures i.e.: the NSA does something evil and we never hear about it. Certainly they are not incented to let everyone know.