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Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Thursday December 31, 2015 @12:28PM (#10818573)
Options are for suckers.

Do you want to be an investor? No? then why would you pay for stock out of your own money?

At our startup everyone gets the same stock, not options, through our Equity Incentive Plan. Here's how it works.

1. We lend new employees the amount of money it would take to buy common stock on a non-recourse promissory note the collateral in this case is the stock itself.

2. The employee then buys the shares from the company with the loan.

3. The employee then files an 83b election so that when it comes time to cash out, they only pay taxes at the strike price of when the shares were bought.

4. At a liquidity event, the promissory note goes away and they own the shares outright

5. They only pay taxes when they sell their shares not when they buy them

Now there are other provisions like if they want to sell prior to a liquidity event, we get rights to buy them back first if we choose to - in which case we just write off whatever the unvested portion from the note and take those shares back.

In the end it gives the employee actual rights to the same class of stock as the founders, so we can't fudge our employees out of stock benefits without hurting our own shares. This also prevents them for having to lay out any money until there is an actual no kidding liquidity event, so they take no risk of paying taxes on something which might be worthless. Even then they will only ever have to pay taxes on the shares, the promissory note goes away, so in effect looks like a equity grant at the time of sale.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by relkor on Thursday December 31, 2015 @01:50PM (#10818993)
This is exactly what I was looking for. As a first time founder at a small private business I was looking for a nicer way to compensate the employees other than sticking them with a huge tax bill as thanks for our success.

Has this approach held up in court or survived an audit? Do you actually transfer the money to the employee's account? How do how do you prevent them from having a program to immediately wire the money to Zurich and run off, given that you have a non-recourse note for the stock that never got purchased?

[edit] I say small business because we do not yet have the 10-15% weekly growth required to be called a startup. Until you are expanding like a airbag, you are just fooling yourself that you matter by calling your company a startup.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Thursday December 31, 2015 @02:07PM (#10819088)
>Has this approach held up in court or survived an audit?

Yes, it's actually a very old way to do things that fell out of favor in the 80s in favor of options. This way of doing it is more complex and more risk for the employer, so it makes no sense to do it over options if your goal is to just give tokens to employees.

>Do you actually transfer the money to the employee's account?

No, it's all papered

Re:Do the math on your stock options by mrkurt on Thursday December 31, 2015 @01:59PM (#10819034)
If it's a small private business, restricted share grants are pretty easy / cheap. Until you have a good basis for a fair market valuation (409a, raising an equity round, etc) employees can just pay the strike price for the shares, file an 83b election, and avoid most of the options calculus.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by ngorski on Thursday December 31, 2015 @03:54PM (#10819638)
> so they take no risk of paying taxes on something which might be worthless

If a the time of a liquidity event the stock is worth less than an employee's strike price, they'll still be underwater. They'll either owe the loan back (the difference between the strike price and exit valuation) or the loan is forgiven and they owe income taxes on the forgiven debt. So there's still risk of owing tax on equity worth less than the current valuation at the time of their offer, right?

Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Thursday December 31, 2015 @05:09PM (#10819978)
There is no underwater because employees don't pay anything for their shares.

So there's still risk of owing tax on equity worth less than the current valuation at the time of their offer, right?

Nope. Because of the 83b election, they pay no tax as the shares vest and pay no tax until they sell their shares.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by encoderer on Thursday December 31, 2015 @03:09PM (#10819400)
I'm sure that "options are for suckers" has a powerful effect in your recruiting materials but I don't think it adds any value to this discussion. Options have real advantages, you don't have to exercise them "out of your own money", and you ignore that a ton of feathers weighs the same as a ton of bricks. (eg, you're not giving me more money just because you're giving me a promissory note).

There's no doubt that you've created a generous plan for your team. The description of your plan was certainly helpful and illuminating. But this thread seems like an odd place for a recruiting ad.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Thursday December 31, 2015 @03:41PM (#10819577)
Definitely isn't a recruiting tool or an ad - in fact I don't even really go into the details of the plan when I do my recruiting because most employees don't really know the difference at that point. If it was an ad it certainly wasn't effective as nobody has contacted me :p.

I'm curious what advantages options give employees over a system like ours. I don't see any, and the whole point of our structure was to give employees lower risk and more comfort that they actually owned equity, not a promise of it.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by encoderer on Thursday December 31, 2015 @05:56PM (#10820191)
It's not that options beat your system, it's that options are what's available and the point of this article is: do the math and understand your equity.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Friday January 01, 2016 @01:23AM (#10821256)
Right, and my point is that options aren't the only thing possible.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by encoderer on Friday January 01, 2016 @05:22AM (#10821546)
To the job candidate they really are. A rare company like yours notwithstanding. Happy new year.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by morgante on Thursday December 31, 2015 @05:40PM (#10820123)
I'm not sure about the specifics of your plan, but I have to commend you for figuring out how to give your employees actual equity (instead of options).

Stock is so much better for employees on almost every possible dimension and it's a real shame that more companies don't give it out, even when it's quite possible to do so (ex. early stage companies who have only raised convertible notes).

Re:Do the math on your stock options by mahyarm on Thursday December 31, 2015 @02:02PM (#10819057)
This is how to do your equity compensation founders. It would be the recruiting tool you need to hire people who won't work at most startups due to research or being burned in the past.

Thanks for sharing this. Thinking on how to do equity compensation right when you have no real profit to share was one of the barriers for me starting a startup.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Thursday December 31, 2015 @02:16PM (#10819130)
At some point I will write it up with templates and all on our blog, but we need to focus on growth right now.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by mrkurt on Thursday December 31, 2015 @01:57PM (#10819029)
This is clever. Who put the plan together? #4 seems like something the IRS would look on unfavorably. Also, before a 409a valuation wouldn't you just be better off granting the shares outright and having employees write a check for $20 or whatever?
Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Thursday December 31, 2015 @02:03PM (#10819059)
Our lawyer put it all together.

It used to be standard practice until a bunch of executives used it in the 80s to cheat the system.

I should note that this plan cannot apply to executives, for that reason.

Also, before a 409a valuation wouldn't you just be better off granting the shares outright and having employees write a check for $20 or whatever?

Yes that's definitely easier, but if you have had a round of financing even before filing a 409a the "valuation" can be determined as far as the IRS in concerned.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by mahyarm on Thursday December 31, 2015 @02:06PM (#10819082)
#4 is actually pretty clever. This way the employees are only taxed at the strike price of the grant as income vs. being taxed at the full value of the stock at the liquidity event. And all the profit from the liquidity event is taxed as long term capital gains. By being a loan vs. income, the stock given to the employee is not taxable until they actually sell.

When the liquidity event happens, the tax from a forgiven loan is very miniscule compared the standard situation.

Re:Do the math on your stock options by Mrmcfeely8 on Friday January 01, 2016 @01:15AM (#10821239)
If the company goes bankrupt, though, can't a bankruptcy trustee go after the employee to try to collect on that loan?
Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Friday January 01, 2016 @01:22AM (#10821250)
No, the non-recourse note is collateralized with the stock.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by Mrmcfeely8 on Friday January 01, 2016 @01:38AM (#10821270)
Hm, I thought IRS treated stock purchased with a non-recourse note as an option (since there's no risk to the employee). If that's true, then you can't take the 83b election. That is, unless you convert to a full recourse note, but then you're back to the employee cash liability thing again.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by Mrmcfeely8 on Friday January 01, 2016 @01:48AM (#10821286)
Interesting discussion here (for some definition of "interesting"): http://www.proformative.com/questions/exercise-stock-option-...
Re:Do the math on your stock options by kooshball on Thursday December 31, 2015 @10:57PM (#10821055)
How does vesting work with this system?
Re:Do the math on your stock options by AndrewKemendo on Friday January 01, 2016 @01:22AM (#10821252)
Standard 4 year vest. Vesting doesn't really change.
Re:Do the math on your stock options by harryh on Thursday December 31, 2015 @01:48PM (#10818978)
Tax fraud is a hell of a drug.