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Re:Paul Graham's kind of dirty (On Unicode support as an exe... by axod on Wednesday January 30, 2008 @04:10AM (#106743)
"You want Unicode support? Write it in."

Sorry but that's like selling someone a car and saying "Oh you want the chassis to be made of metal instead of wood? Well you can change that can't you."

I disagree. If you're building something from the start, you decide on a good character set, and use it. Namely Unicode. It's a lot easier to do that than to try and fix things afterwards.

Look at php. Dealing with Unicode in php is a major hassle because it wasn't designed from the ground up to support Unicode. It was added in later as a library. So now you have special functions for dealing with unicode, and all the hassle and verbosity that entails in your code.

In Javascript or Java however, Unicode just works universally.

I'd say choosing a character set is one of the first things you should do as a language designer - that's why I was surprised with the lack of support for anything but ascii which just doesn't cut it any more for real world applications.

Saying that adding Unicode is a couple of days work for anyone interested sounds like a recipe for absolute disaster - see how php turned out.

Re:Paul Graham's kind of dirty (On Unicode support as an exe... by koolmoe on Wednesday January 30, 2008 @08:47AM (#106819)
Sorry but that's like selling someone a car and saying "Oh you want the chassis to be made of metal instead of wood? Well you can change that can't you."

Except pg isn't selling anything, he's just letting you see and use what's ostensibly made his life easier.

I'd modify your simile to something more accurate, but modifying similes is a black hole.

Re:Paul Graham's kind of dirty (On Unicode support as an exe... by axod on Wednesday January 30, 2008 @01:49PM (#106969)
OK, he's giving us a car with a wooden chassis. Might be a great car, fun to drive. But it will probably need the chassis replacing unless you want to crash.
Re:Paul Graham's kind of dirty (On Unicode support as an exe... by koolmoe on Wednesday January 30, 2008 @04:01PM (#107065)
It's more like he gave you a scalpel, a tool that's great - even indispensible - for a specific set of cutting tasks, but that might leave you disappointed if you chose to use it for cutting down a tree.

Except that scalpels aren't really all that extensible.

See, I told you it was a black hole...

Re:Paul Graham's kind of dirty (On Unicode support as an exe... by BrandonM on Wednesday January 30, 2008 @03:13PM (#107025)
Ignoring the bad simile (which others have pointed out), adding Unicode support for someone who has done it in MzScheme before probably is no more than a couple days' work, if that. The changes can be done in the bowels of the implementation and then submitted as a patch, just like any other open source project. The PHP library problems don't have to occur, because it doesn't have to be in a library.

I agree with you that adding Unicode support on top of a language is a terrible idea. But when the language's authors have said that compatibility in future versions is not an issue, when they open source the language, and when one of them says,

MzScheme, which the current version of Arc compiles to, has some more advanced plan for dealing with characters. But it would probably have taken me a couple days to figure out how to interact with it, and I don't want to spend even one day dealing with character sets.

to me, that is coming right out and saying, "Hey, I didn't feel like figuring out character sets, but I know MzScheme has a way of doing it. I'd love for you to do what you need to in order to get this working, because it doesn't interest me."

Also, if someone gave me a gift car with a wooden chassis, I would be quite happy with it. I'd drive it while it worked, and when it got to be enough of an annoyance, I'd take the car apart and rebuild it on a steel one. I certainly wouldn't bitch about it.

Re:Paul Graham's kind of dirty (On Unicode support as an exe... by mechanical_fish on Wednesday January 30, 2008 @12:01PM (#106896)
Sorry but that's like selling someone a car and saying "Oh you want the chassis to be made of metal instead of wood? Well you can change that can't you."

I agree. You should definitely take Arc back, demand a refund, and refuse to ever pay for it again.

In Javascript or Java however, Unicode just works universally

Yes, and what a great language Java is. You should probably keep using it.

I mean, thank god the Java 1.0 guys worried so much about character sets instead of, say, macros or closures or even regular expressions. Otherwise Java might be burdened with a lot of bolt-on special functions that add "hassle and verbosity" to the code.