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Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by tezza on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @11:10AM (#10581969)
Thanks for a measured and informative response. I could add to your list reams of links of where 'we' have behaved badly.

I suspect you too have a bulging bookmark folder like I do of hypocritical western behaviour.

However the battle against militant jihadi extremists is one issue where 'we' are completely in the right. Completely.

No need to apologise for past wrongs. If we have regarded life as too cheap in the past, that is irrelevant to ensuring your own family cannot be killed.

Now prior actions of our own may have exacerbated, strengthened and accelerated the militant jihadis ( Iraq, Afghanistan ). But even without our own errors and crimes militant jihadis would have arisen eventually.

The jihadis have so many 'reasons' to kill us. If some 'reasons' did not exist because we didn't invade Iraq say, or we addressed other 'reasons' ( say for example we disbanded Israel ) there are just so many more 'reasons' left for the jihadis that single us out for killing.

Lets say Iraq was still under Saddam and Syria under Assad. No ISIS perhaps. What then about al Qaeda, the Taliban, al Qaeda in the Yemen, Boko Haram, Jemaah Islamiyah.

And the militant jihadis have found a brainwashing method that repeatably draws from a small but replenishing minority of evil, vain and stupid young people.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by woah on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @12:35PM (#10582654)
This is a silly viewpoint. I say this not out of some white-guilt self flagellation, but because if we hold these silly Star Wars level beliefs about Islamic extremism, we will not be able to effectively fight them.

Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination. I'm not saying we should try to prove them wrong by being really nice or something, I think it's too late for that, but it helps to understand this.

ISIS gives them a clear path to rectify the situation. Terrorism is pathetic militarily, killing 100 civilians is no accomplishment. However it is brilliant strategically.

Terrorist attacks cause the western world to completely fly off the handle and give the terrorists everything they could ever ask for. So far, we've gifted them 3 countries (there's no way they could have ever invaded by themselves, but we did it for them). We've also gifted them with a huge number of weapons, which were originally intended for such entities as "the free Syrian army" and "democratic Iraq".

All of this is made possible by the cowardice of western morons whose entire education on geopolitics comes from Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. Please stop helping the terrorists.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by mbrock on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @01:34PM (#10583038)
I don't know why people in general join ISIS but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it does in fact have to do with an "evil" appeal. Darth Vader made some good arguments, too.

People love this kind of fantastical good/evil stuff. Who's good and who's evil depends on what side you're on, of course. Like that Russian book I heard about that's a rewrite of Lord of the Rings from Sauron's perspective.

Look at what games boys and young men so often choose to play. When I was seven I was out in the forests with my friends with fake guns. It was really fun. Then I put down childish things and got into Counter-Strike. I loved playing the terrorists. The AK-47 was just great and the avatars looked pretty cool.

This is kind of off-the-cuff sociological speculation or something, but: religion is a very powerful aesthetic phenomenon. In combination with war, you get a combination of thrills, ecstasy, excitement, danger, meaning, and hope that's hard to beat, for certain personality types.

Look at the ISIS propaganda videos. They're not laying out a rational strategy for improving the world. They're presenting an aesthetic image, a very masculine one, full of cars and guns and desert missions and fighting and stuff. Combined with the pious literalist faith that also has its own appeal. They do offer a hope for a future world, a glorious Islamic caliphate and whatnot, probably the deserts will bloom and peace will reign and Muslim Jesus will rise from the dead.

They say things like "Are you satisfied with your shitty life in suburban London or Paris? Do you like the way people look at you? Do you feel alive? Do you love your life? ...no? Come here. We not only have an exciting virile lifestyle full of action and terrible sublime beauty, but also we are the true messengers of the true prophet and God is on our side."

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by drumdance on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @06:34PM (#10584812)
The Lord of the Rings metaphor is apt. Musa Cerantonio preaches that ISIS is part of Allah's plan as laid out in the Koran. And that most Muslims should expect destruction.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by Jtsummers on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @03:06PM (#10583593)
> Young people join ISIS not because they are "evil" (what, are they Darth Vader?). They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.

I will not speak about young people joining ISIS, but I've known people who joined or wanted to join the military strictly to kill. These folks exist. You give them a strong ideological or philosophical reason to kill for and it brings in some of those sitting on the fence. In the case of the US military, I've not known anyone who made it through bootcamp with these attitudes (though I'm sure plenty have). They actively weed out these folks because, while their main mission involves killing, psychopaths aren't usually good soldiers. Groups like ISIS have no qualms in this regard, so these attitudes will survive their equivalent of basic training.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by drumdance on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @06:36PM (#10584823)
How do you explain the women joining ISIS?
Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by Jtsummers on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @07:12PM (#10584986)
I'm not going to attempt to explain it all. What I wrote about only explains some of the people joining.

And women can desire to kill too. Or see conservative Christian women in the US (where I am) choosing to deliberately set aside careers and other "modern" or "masculine" things for their beliefs.

I can't explain that either, seems bizarre to me to deliberately reduce your agency, but some people think it's the thing to do.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by hueving on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @02:27PM (#10583381)
>They join because ISIS makes a compelling case that the world would be a better place if it was rid of western domination.

Bullshit. The people who are destroying ancient statues and slaughtering other Muslims didn't sign up for some grand scheme of bringing down the west after a reasoned argument. They signed up because they are violent psychopaths and they were given an avenue to do all of the fucked up things that struck their fancy.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by drumdance on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @06:35PM (#10584819)
Do you really think every single one of them is a psychopath?

I think it's more like gangs. Kids join gangs because they want to belong to something bigger than themselves. ISIS offers something similar to people who feel alienated from the West.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by the_af on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @07:18PM (#10585004)
> They signed up because they are violent psychopaths and they were given an avenue to do all of the fucked up things that struck their fancy.

If they signed up because of this, boy I wouldn't want to be in their shoes once they realize their mistake! Judging by everything I read, ISIS rulers enforce a strict Sharia law, with patrols making sure everyone is using the correct dress code.

I've also seen a documentary with a woman going undercover into ISIS-held territory (I think it was by the BBC) which claimed that Jihadists that break the "law" get killed, and that in fact ISIS welcomes any reports of misbehavior of their troops and punishes them hardly. ISIS seems to be ruling their territory with an iron hand, it's definitely not the land of do as you please and kill whom you fancy.

Re:VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris ... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @07:36PM (#10585097)
Quite a few of them are murdered by ISIS within the first couple of days once they wake up and smell the roses. The remainder then dances to the tunes of their new masters.