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Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by nitrogen on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @02:00AM (#10579584)
Cryptography exists independently from any corporation that may or may not use it in a messaging system.
Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by mc32 on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @02:23AM (#10579651)
Unless ISIS, etc. have better crypto minds than the likes of firms who spend billions in that domain (and still make mistakes), you're asking a lot from foot soldier terrorists by asking them to produce, to borrow from oracle, "unbreakable" bug free comms platform.
Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by nitrogen on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @02:55AM (#10579737)
But it already exists. PGP and couriers. Taking encryption away from the innocent doesn't change that.
Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by mc32 on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @11:32AM (#10582140)
That slows down things. It also allows currier interception.

If it's so easy, then, go ahead, replace all your daily encryption with gpg and couriers, see how effective you become.

Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by nitrogen on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @12:26PM (#10582596)
It would also kill our modern economy. But it wouldn't prevent terrorism.
Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by mc32 on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @12:51PM (#10582757)
How would a hypothetical governments requiring mitm interception capability "kill the modern economy"? If China, The EU etc required it, others would follow... Ordinary people would keep on using gov't mandated mitm encrypted comms and apps. So long as there was protection from your neighbor snooping on you, and the gov't guarantees [whatever that means] it won't use it against you except in "combating terror" most people would go along with it.

Just as with disease, you're not looking to eliminate it, you're looking to minimize it.

Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by nitrogen on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @05:00PM (#10584303)
You're arguing for an impossible thing, a crypto system that exactly one third party can intercept. If it's based on a key and the key leaks, it would destroy the modern economy.

If it's based on requiring a specific amount of computation, the neighborhood despot buys a billion dollars of computers instead of feeding the people and destroys the modern economy.

If more than one government requires such interception capabilities for a single transaction, and the communicating parties involved don't trust all the governments involved, they won't communicate which will destroy the modern economy.

If, magically, none of the previous scenarios play out, anybody who wants to communicate securely will have the enormous burden of complying with the regulations of all of the involved governments, slowing down commerce and innovation, and potentially destroying the modern economy.

If there's a government key server that dispenses a public key for government snooping and it goes down/a competing government redirects to its own key/DNS or BGP is poisoned/etc. then someone else gets all the traffic and destroys the modern economy.

Beyond the economy it's a matter of trust. For the relatively small benefit of a very slight (or even zero) reduction in terrorist incidents, there's simply nobody who can be trusted with the power to snoop on everything.

Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by mc32 on Tuesday November 17, 2015 @11:14PM (#10585880)
So, yes, one of the above. Depends on how countries might negotiate and they can have rules and penalties for rule breaking, just like they do for most other things.

What I don't get is one the one hand it's too expensive for governments to do effective snooping (too much data to sift) but on the other hand trust would be broken because everyone could find anything... but governments would be incapable of finding information that same trust breaking information.

1. despots already leave their populations unfed, the world keeps on going.

2. commerce happened before encryption. There hasn't been good reliable and easy to use encryption till the last couple of years. it's not as if the world hadn't globalized despite that.

3. There are already a lot of rules which apply to international commerce, this add very little in comparison.

4. Govt's who want to share in this scheme agree to rules and penalties for breaking them.

Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by nitrogen on Wednesday November 18, 2015 @12:00AM (#10586011)
What I don't get is one the one hand it's too expensive for governments to do effective snooping (too much data to sift) but on the other hand trust would be broken because everyone could find anything... but governments would be incapable of finding information that same trust breaking information.

It's possible for both to be true. The price to snoop effectively is too high (wasting money), so either the government is wasting ridiculous amounts of money and violating everyone, or they're not wasting the money, not catching terrorists, and just using the information to violate specific individuals.

despots already leave their populations unfed, the world keeps on going.

It's the computers, not the food.

commerce happened before encryption. There hasn't been good reliable and easy to use encryption till the last couple of years. it's not as if the world hadn't globalized despite that.

Encryption is essential to modern commerce. Businesses and banks need to be able to transfer files between offices without fear that an unfriendly corporation, government, or hacker can intercept those files. Customers need to be able to download software and send payment information to companies without having a virus inserted in the download or their payment details stolen.

There are also free speech, whistleblower, and related considerations that I don't want to take the time to argue here.

But foremost, beyond all that it's still not established that forced MITM will reduce terrorism. That fundamental idea needs to be established first before any other factors are worth considering, and even then the net benefit to the world may still be greater with encryption than without.

Re:Encrypted Messaging Apps Face New Scrutiny Over Possible ... by mc32 on Wednesday November 18, 2015 @12:52AM (#10586187)
> still not established that forced MITM will reduce terrorism.

That's the only criterion.

All the rest are excuses because people can make a calculus and by and large people and corps, if MITM would be proven to be effective, would likely go for it, given alternatives, despite any other objections put forth by people who believe in opposing this alternative.

It's almost as though people wish it would be ineffective to prove the opinion right. Is it effective? I don't know, I don't have the data but neither do others with opposing views -it's conjecture. But, one would imagine a few governments must have the answer to that but aren't saying.

>or they're not wasting the money, not catching terrorists, and just using the information to violate specific individuals.

Isn't that what one would want from such a regime? Be able to dedicate resources on following the right graphs?

That's saying, well, they have the capability to follow known targets, but when it gets to terrorist targets they become dumb -even though the mission of such orgs is to follow those specific targets.